Your favorite Ilustrisimo technique

Discussion in 'Kali Ilustrisimo' started by Black Grass, Apr 12, 2006.

  1. Black Grass

    Black Grass Junior Member

    For the Ilustrisimo players in the room.

    What is you favorite Ilustrisimo technique and why?

    (pls describe as terminology in Ilustrisimo is not universal also for our non-Ilustrisimo members).

    I'll start.

    Classico (Klassico)
    - A defence against a mid or low level slash or thrust from the open ( albrieta) position. As the attack comes in, it is avoided using a retreating x-stance ( Ekais) and a strike to the incoming limb. When the attack passes (or is passed) the defender returns facing the oponent with the weapon occupying centre line ready to trust.

    I like this move because I think it looks kewl.


    Vince
    aka Black Grass
     
  2. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    Doble Carrera (double race) from either abierta or cerrada position.

    As your opponent (assuming right vs. right) slashes diagonally to your left temple, aggressively flank at 45 degrees to his outside with your own diagonal slash. However, the object is to slash at his eyes/face first and then using the same line, intercept his weapon. Once his weapon is met, bring it right back on the same line with a thrust. Make sure you utilize bantay-kamay to monitor weaponhand. This works very well against a backhanded attack and depending on your range...a counter is limited.

    JohnJ
    www.swacom.com
     
  3. Matt Lim

    Matt Lim New Member

    Praxion
    A preemptive strike/counter against any attack initiated by the opponent.

    Salamat!
     
  4. oosh

    oosh Junior Member

    KAPA - an explosive and painful disarm, where the thumb and index finger is secured and then POP ! :D
     
  5. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    Just for clarification...Pracion is a principle not an actual technique.
     
  6. Matt Lim

    Matt Lim New Member

    Yup!

    Then, I would say, Cadena Real/Tumbada - an entering technique by spilling off an attack and returning a cut in one fluid movement.

    Salamat!
     
  7. Black Grass

    Black Grass Junior Member

    I would say that is my second fav!

    Vince
    aka BLack Grass
     
  8. armas

    armas Junior Member

    Media fraile: this is used vs. a diagonal backhand or a downward strike to the top of the head. You are in abierta position. You sidestep to the right and intercept with the tip of the weapon. Then you counterstrike with a thrust. Don't forget the left hand to parry the weaponhand.

    Second is Estrella-arco- vs an inside strike to the left side of the head or body or downward strike to the top of the head. As you sweep your weapon from abierta position you hit the head of the opponent as you sidestep to the right. Then you block or hit the weapon hand of the opponent check with the left and slash the body with a backhand strike.

    here's a story of me learning estrella from Tatang. I ask him why did he call this technique Estrella. Tatang says strike me with here in the left temple. He executes estrella as he hits me in the head then my hand parries and I get hit on the side. He says did you see any estrellas(Stars)! hahaha! This is a true story. I was a beginner in Kalis Ilustrisimo. I wish I had a camcorder when I was studying with him. Hope you guys like it.
     
  9. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    Hi Armas,

    Just curious who you are and with whom you currently train with? I don't mean to be overly personal but rather enthusiastic to meet fellow KI players.

    Just for clarification, there are 2 methods of Fraile; Media Fraile and Fraile. Media is used against a downward vertical strike to the crown of the head while Fraile is against a backhand diagonal. You pretty much described Fraile. The use of Media Fraile is to intercept and counter simultaneously. Parry attacking weaponhand while striking opponents eyes with tip of your weapon in one harmonious movement. Basically, you are using your bantay-kamay to push opponent's weaponhand off centerline. By doing so, your weapons should meet and as you clear the opponents weapon, you are retracting yours to his outside for a follow up thrust. This must be done with Tatlong Bao footwork in aggressive or offensive manner.

    Estrella is not done against a vertical or diagonal strike due to the potential of the opponents sword sliding down yours and cutting you. Unless you are executing Advanced Estrella after set up and even that could have the same potential disadvantage.

    JohnJ
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2006
  10. oosh

    oosh Junior Member

    haha good story Armas :D
     
  11. Matt Lim

    Matt Lim New Member

    Kumusta,
    Here in manila, we practice a "family" of Fraile against all conceivable attacks. The name Media Fraile is the only name we mention in public. You might be familiar with some of them bacause Tatang uses a lot of Fraile. One not so known to the mass was Fraile Lateral demonstrated by Romy Macapagal in his article in Rapid Journal.
    We suggest that beginners use Estrella against a high body planchada but only at the beginning stage of his training. The mark of an advanced Ilustrisimo practitioner can be seen by his use of Estrella against ANY strike.

    Salamat!
     
  12. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    KI continues to evolve even as we speak, as any good art should. As you know, the original core techniques varied from 28 to 32 methods from what I have been exposed to. In a recent seminar outline from one of Mang Romy's seminar, there were techniques new and unfamiliar to even his peers. This is a perfect example that KI today continues to develop with GM Tony & Mang Romy. And it is a positive thing.

    There is a reason for that. And as mentioned and concur with your statement, advanced Estrella can certainly be done against a variety of attacks but the set up has become more prevalent. For example, defending against a number 1 is not as easy as attacking the eyes and then followig the line to opponents weaponhand. There aren't many people who can react instinctively like Tatang. Therefore we must assess and decipher what strategies can compliment specific techniques. Mind you this is not a variation or interpretation of Advanced Estrella as Tatang would often set up his opponents.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2006
  13. Black Grass

    Black Grass Junior Member

    This why I asked for description as opposed to just names of techniques.

    Initially when I started learning Ilustrisimo from Master Topher I learned many techniques which I never knew the name until much later. There must have been at least 10 techniques called "this one". :).

    Also some of the terms used in the Kalis Ilustrisimo book, which was co-written by Master Topher he did not use with me, such as "tindig abierta" he simply refered to it as "fighting form". Now it might have been my limited tagalog as he would frequently switch between english and tagalog when teaching me.

    Vince
    aka Black Grass
     
  14. armas

    armas Junior Member

    I can relate to you Vince. That's why it is so hard to describe the techniques in text. It is easier to show it. but all is good. This is a great art!
     
  15. Matt Lim

    Matt Lim New Member

    Kumusta,
    Evolution is good as long as it doesn't sever itself from the root it professed to be growing from.
    But I'm not talking about derivative techniques, I've seen these techniques from Tatang himself. The core style/method is Fraile. Maybe the conflict will stem from the use of different names referring to specific movements but I know Topher is familiar with the actual movements himself.


    You set up a skilled opponent never an ordinary assailant. The "original" (if I may use the word original) Estrella was meant to engage an aggressive commited attack from a distance(fuera distancia). The only set up there might be the acute awareness and manipulation of distance. It was related to Tres Andanas and Combate Heneral.
    The study of Tatang Ilustrisimo's Art can never end. The art is not so eager to reveal what it conceals.
    Salamat.
     
  16. Matt Lim

    Matt Lim New Member

    Kumusta,
    It was a device by Topher to prevent you from putting the technique inside a box thus limiting its actual function. It is used to prevent students from "understanding". Understanding is the booby prize of those who can't do.
    Terms are used to illustrate the art more clearly to the students, to come closer and not to alienate them from the source. Tatang never wanted clones of himself, so he expected his students to express their individual selves and not somebody else.
    Salamat.
     
  17. Black Grass

    Black Grass Junior Member

    Matt,

    I agree with you to a certain extent, Master Topher really focused on being able to fight, 'training' as opposed to 'learning'. Although I do think there is value in 'understanding' as long as you can 'do'. Alot of western students worry about promotion and learning 'more'. I was coming from JKD and had just broken this habit. The 'more' attitude plagues many practioners JKD .

    I agree with you on the second point as well. I think many teachers use terminology to mistify themselves and there systems. Saw alot of this in JKD too. Which is why I asked for descriptions, just cause you know the name of something doesn't me, ***** to me.

    What i loved about Tatang he to borrow from Nike 'just do' attitude. I really feel that Master Topher keeps that spirit alive.


    Vince
    aka Black Grass

    For the record I am not a JKD basher as I still train and teach it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2006
  18. Matt Lim

    Matt Lim New Member

    Kumusta,
    Another meaning of "understanding" is limitation. You understood.. past tense. I think Tatang's techniques are alive and their names are just still pictures of the living entity. Heavy emphasis on the name will stifle real understanding.
    I used to tell foreign students that there are no names, just descriptions.
    Regards to topher!
    Salamat.
     
  19. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member



    I concur.



    Neither was I. I do not base techniques by name but by principles which are universally applicable against a host of attacks. However, we must still point out the point of execution in which this particular technique stems from hence the necessity to make the distinction between the 2 methods. And because of this, my confusion may lie in your description of Fraile used against a vertical strike to the head. In other words, Media can be used effectively against a vertical cause of your ability to use the livehand and ability to move outside the attack with foot work. If you execute from the cerrada position, you are kept within the hazards of the line of attack even with footwork. If it is merely terminology that is creating this gray area, maybe you can shed some light on the Lateral method cause “lateral” (a side movement) ” somewhat contradicts the end position of fraile which is vertical. I assume, this is the method you were referring to?




    I asked Tups and he does not recall a “lateral”. BTW…were you a student of Tatang, a peer of Tophers or a student of Romy???


    I disagree. As the saying goes, “never underestimate your opponent”. A less skilled adversary can easily surprise and frustrate you with broken rhythm, timing and intent alone. This is evident in all martial arenas. Therefore, set-ups are essential if your strategies are somewhat negated or failing.



    I understand. My point is that set-ups in relation to this technique are more prevalent. It takes more than mere awareness and manipulation of distance. It requires precise timing and the commitment as in the aggressive flanking seen in Combate Heneral.

    Agreed.



    To outsiders of KI I agree but between the senior disciples and now contemporary players, secrecy should be null for WE are not fighting each other. Sadly, I see this with contemporaries from the various factions of KI. If we are to truly preserve Tatang’s legacy then let us make more effort to do it with integrity.

     
  20. Matt Lim

    Matt Lim New Member

    Kumusta,
    Yes, principle is primary.
    Basic Fraile "Lateral" can be executed from abierta or cerrada but to illustrate it clearly you can start with cerrada posture against a forehand diagonal cut. You intercept the opponent's cut from under his blade with a vertical subida, then you enter outside him, livehand outside inward parry, and redirect his blade to your right all at the same time. Then end it with a #11 thrust. Hope that helps. Macapagal calls it Fraile Tochada.

    I am a student of Tatang Ilustrisimo. I grew up a few houses from Tatang's.
    Same reason why I refrain from setting up unskilled opponents, they are jerky, choppy, and engaging. In my experience, simple and direct attacks work best.
    We here in manila never keep secrets about the techniques/methods of Tatang Ilustrisimo. We teach them even to strangers. Anyone who met Tony, Romy, Yuli, and the rest will attest that their impression of the Ilustrisimo after their first session was that it's so overwhelming, "so many things to learn for so little time". Ilustrisimos are very generous, sometimes too generous. What I'm saying was that the Art itself will not readily reveal itself to just anybody.
    On my part, as my expression of respect and gratitude to Tatang Ilustrisimo, I refrain myself from presenting him to the world as One Mean Killing Machine.
    Salamat.
     

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