Would you train under and uncertified "guro"

Discussion in 'General' started by geezer, Jan 12, 2008.

  1. roger211

    roger211 New Member

    I think teaching someone is good. Teaching a class, well, as for me being a teacher, I want to make sure my students are learning everything properly.

    I went back to WA for a 4 day MMA seminar with Anderson Silva and Antonio Rodrigo Noguiera, and I taught some of my friends some of those techniques I learned from the seminar.

    The dont know much about grappling, so it was a lil clinic on bjj.
     
  2. Guro Marc

    Guro Marc New Member

    Certs and Teachers

    I have trained with Manongs (family) that held no Certs and would give you a really run for your money. Grampa Espi could really fight! My teacher Felix Roiles, our system's Grand Master was not certified by his Grandfather but was taught the family system, then went and proved it in the Phillipines by fighting and winning (2-time world heavy wieght champ). He was not certified by anyone until he was asked to join in with Doce Pares. I feel that if you like the person and can they fight as wellas teach, learn from them. I know some great fighters in FMA that are not certified but if they will teach you you are lucky. I know of some that are certifed and charge fees for testing but if you ask them to fight they will not! A Manong once said ME that belts mean nothing on the mat, but your spirt does!
     
  3. tswolfman

    tswolfman Member

    No matter if they are certified or not it all depends on the instructor, but for those not in the fold it is easier to accept someone if they have the paper. Does it mean that paper is good. NO, But how can they know until after they have trained.
     
  4. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    To tell the truth, the first two posts that describet the "hypothetical instructor" have given an almost ideal picture, so I don'treally see whether there is anything to be argued.

    Regarding Scubamatt's comments on certification being a legal and business thing, I sadly agree. He made a good point, of people generally not being ready recognize your qualities without a piece of paper. Unfortunately, that is the state of our civilization right now - if there is no some paper saying so, you practically do not exist... The bottom line is that our world is ruled by bureaucracy, and personally, I am always glad to see good things, thing I like that are not in conformity with those bureaucratic regulations.
     
  5. Kailat

    Kailat KAILAT KOMBATIVES GROUP

    Certificates, Teaching, CERTIFIED or NOT!

    Okay here is my take on this subject;

    The aformentioned gentleman who is teaching sounds like a well rounded individual who cares about his students and school.

    When I started martial arts back in the mid 80's I began studying FMA. We were being cross trained in FMA at my Karate school. So as I climbed the rank structure I attended seminars, and workshops as well as many private lessons. I never recieved any "RANK" status under my FMA teacher. However, I have many (alot to be exact) certificates with "hours of training" accumulated on them. So by the time I reached and earned my Black Belt in Karate I was at the equivelent level in FMA according to my FMA teacher. Over the years I studied in other systems and earned "ranking status". But to this day I use most of my teachings and credentials to my 1st teacher. I am still currently actively "involved" with this teacher. He stands behind me as I teach my own FMA group.

    I do the same thing that he done many years ago. Instead of rank etc.. I too pass along "hours of training" certificates. I explain to my students the same way it was explained to me. We come to train and learn from each other. I may be able to show you what I know, but if you got something to share, or skilled in another system we defenitly welcome your knowledge as well.

    I have a pretty extensive background (on paper) with certificates and belts and all that crap, but one of the most respectful ways I see in the teaching world is " TEACHER , STUDENT" philosophy. you walk into a school or training group etc.. everyone can be wearing street clothes but everyone knows who is there to lead! So I personally don't see the point of uniforms, rank, etc. RESPECT is given where respect is due. As so many has preached on here : I believe that in most instances those that can "do" and those that canno't "DO NOT"... you earn your place by the drive and desire to teach and if you can stand and survive on that proving ground then as far as Im concerned, by all means DO IT!!! If you don't have the knowledge or ability to teach chances are you won't be a successful teacher. It's a pretty simple process reallly.
     
  6. roger211

    roger211 New Member

    As for me being new into the FMA scene, I dont know who's legit or not.

    I havent ran across any one that is a scam artist in FMA or even other arts so far.

    I do know guys that watch a couple of dvds and believe they can teach a class.

    But if someone owns a school, they are putting themselves out there and really, if you learn from them, then its all worth it.
     
  7. Kailat

    Kailat KAILAT KOMBATIVES GROUP

    Legit or NON-Legit

    In essence, the truth comes down to this. If the guy that is portraying to be an instructor seems to know his stuff, and has defenite skills and your happy with him. Go4 it!! He may only be able to take you so far... But depending on your future FMA goals depending on if you just want to learn "how to fight" or learn a system to pass on to make a little side change or own your own prestigeous school. I guess thats truley what makes a certified or verifiabel inst. or not. I know guys that never been trained a day in thier life, but can FIGHT like no other.. It's obvious they know how to make it work. I'd take a man's worth thats survived numerous battles or fights w/ no credentials over that of someone of mere heresay and no said fights to his name other than a certificate... All it comes down to is, someone found a MARKETING scheme by many many hours on the battle field w/ thier own proven methods of survival and combat and then said "Hmm I can profit from this" Thats just my take on it...funny how us Westerners think..

    My grandma can cook like no other!! But never took a cookin lesson in her life, just passed down from her momma and so on so forth. Would I take and spend money from Chef Boyardee' a "known name"? or spend some time learning to cook from Grandma although she' is noone other than my grandma just learned old family ways of cookin passed down?

    ( Sound familiar?)

    thats just how i look at this whole thing..
     
  8. Guro Dave Gould

    Guro Dave Gould LAMECO ESKRIMA SYSTEM

    Hi guys,

    I was just browsing and thought that I would comment on this thread. Actually it comes down to what the student is seeking. If he wants to move up in a specific system or style then yes he should seek out a qualified / translated here as certified Instructor in that specific system or style.

    It would only behoove the student as he over a period of time develops and obtains rank and grade with the intent to one day propagate that specific style or system to his own students in a manner where other people in that specific stye or system will recognize their lineage.

    Otherwise if a student is just looking to mature in a fighting discipline for pure combative effect and has no interest in moving up in a specific recognized style or system then I say to train with whom ever they feel will benefit them most regardless of politics or personal agenda.

    I know plenty of people with credentials to die for but most can not apply anything that they have learned against a pissed off street fighter who cares not for his own life much less anyone elses. Just because you have pedigrees does not mean that those mixed mongrels lurking in the shadows can not give you a reality check.

    The rooster strutting around in the front yard trying to impress all of the hens quickly becomes dinner for the hungry pit-bull who is not so easily impressed but rather only wants to eat and to him a prized rooster tastes just as good as a yard bird when hunger sets in.

    Certificates, accolades and awards serve a purpose but they are very poor substitutes for fighting ability when forced to defend life and limb in the streets. A good Instructor should possess three qualities:1) He should know his system inside and out. 2) He should be able to teach his system indepth in a manner that is easily understood by his students. 3) He should be able to apply his system in defending life and limb against anyone that he may encounter with positive effect.

    Just because someone does not come from a recognized system or style does not degrade or diminish their combative ability, I am sure that the Romans were not initially impressed by the Huns, goths or barbarians, that is until they were knocking down the gates to Rome and brought down the empire.

    In the final analysis of things abilities will always be more relevent than paper, trophies or awards and to be honest you will most likely get further down the path of knowledge with a recognized Instructor but even by stumbling down that path you still make progress and you are still traveling the same path.

    Go well guys, ciao.

    Guro Dave Gould.
     
  9. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    Certificates, ranks and affiliation are appealing to the general public because quite often, they are the initial things to consider. However, we all know that ALL of the above can now be bought or achieved in a seminar or two and even through certification camps. While I do not doubt there are talented individuals who can absorb efficiently, I will always question integrity which IMO lacks in the martial arts community. Now, if you are someone who cares only to achieve some sort of rank to add to your credentials then unfortunately you have no choice but to look to those who can provide them. And that is when the "paper" qualification holds some validity.

    Other things to consider... just because someone is affiliated with a particular system that is mainstream does not mean the instruction is quality. Look to the instructor for his ability to teach and provide functional training methods. One who stresses principles and concepts not techniques. Someone who is teaching for the benefit of the student and NOT his financial wants. There are ways to determine an instructors true intent. Instructors also need to be open to questions and even criticism (in some ways). And most importantly, he/she MUST be able to apply
    what is taught in a manner that voids out theory based instructors.
     
  10. Kailat

    Kailat KAILAT KOMBATIVES GROUP

    certificates are great and has and does serve a purpose. As many has stated!! BUT I don't think it should decide or be the determining factor on wheather or not someone is a credible teacher or not. If it were to ever be admited most of your older masters probably didn't have certification themselves. Cabalas, Canete's, Tortal's etc... I could be wrong but I can't see how a "FAMILY" system passed down from uncle to brother etc.. could pass along certificates unless they themselves just made them. It's no different than many martial arts schools today.
     
  11. ScorpioVI

    ScorpioVI New Member


    This is incorrect. I know for a fact that GM Cabales handed out diplomas. There are Serrada instructors that refer to themselves by the number that is on their diploma, as in "Instructor # XX". Suro Inay himself was the one who designed the Cabales diplomas, and I've personally had, in my hands, blank Cabales diplomas.
     
  12. Kailat

    Kailat KAILAT KOMBATIVES GROUP

    Diplomas, Certificates

    "This is incorrect. I know for a fact that GM Cabales handed out diplomas."

    Your absolutly correct. Angel did hand out diplomas. My point was though was ANGEL certified? Did he get a diploma? Or did he just take what he learned from his elders and create his own version of Escrima? In all honesty I don't know that much of GM Cabalas' past other than what i've read and heard in sit down conversations from some of his students and those amongst the Inayan Escrima group. I am in no means 'dissing" these fine instructors and legends of our martial past. In fact without these great pioneers of FMA we probably would not be where many of us are today.

    In this topic which is debating "should someone train with an uncertified instructor"? I think in all regaurds as some have said its a personal preference. If all there is in your area is uncertified instructors then thats all you have. If you have done your research and the uncertified teacher is as good and your more comfortable w/ that individual than the certified schools then go where your comfy.

    I do today how my Guro passed to me.. Instead of certifying you to teach or what not, he passes along certificates "UNDER HIS TRAINING" per workshop or by every 24 to 40 hours you study. He gave us a cert from him stating " such and such individual has dedicated time and training as set forth by _____ and has attended X amount of hours studying (BLANK). I think this allows a student and teacher to evaluate his or her own attendance and time in grade.

    Many of my old school boxing coaches and many today have nothing to prove thier abilities other than thier boxer's when they got in the ring!!

    thanks again

    Cory
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2008
  13. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    All I can say is, if you feel he has something that wil benefit you in your knowledge of the FMA then train with him, if you feel he has nothing to offer you then dont.

    But from what I have read he sounds as though he knows what he is doing and he runs his classes the way I like to so I can relate to that.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  14. geezer

    geezer Member

    This gets to the core of the issue. Who gave "certification" to the likes of GGM Cabales, Tatang Ilustrisimo, Anciong Bacon? The dead or wounded they fought? When Leo Giron defended his homeland against the Japanese invaders during WWII, did the enemy give out certificates before dying? Many others of a younger generation did acheive formal ranks in karate, judo and other Asian arts, but not in the FMA's that they learned from family, friends, and little-known local masters. Many have gone on to synthesize their own systems. My own teacher learned under some of the greats--Cabales, Sarmiento, Revillar and Giron. But his greatest teacher was his own father who chose to remain unknown, and gave no certificates. Similarly, the instructor I profiled at the beginning of this thread studied under both known and unknown "masters". According to him, some were old brawlers and drunks who never taught publicly. But they really knew stuff. Not fancy stuff. How to win, save your life...and kill people. Sounds a lot like the old way to me. As my grandad, a tough old rancher, liked to say, "Vale mas el modo viejo".
     
  15. Carol

    Carol <font color = blue><b>Technical Administrator</b><

    In general, my concern about uncertified teachers are not concerns about experienced martial artists that have a tendency to take on other experienced martial artists as students. If someone has been training in an art for awhile and they turn to "Dangerous Dan's Dumog Den" to round out their training a bit....I don't see an issue with that, whether or not "Dan" has an official cert or not.

    What I do have an issue with are the instructors that have very little FMA training, no certification, and claim to teach "FMA" to inexperienced martil artists. Many empty-hand practitioners would be outraged if an FMAist takes a seminar or three in an empty hand art and then turns around and teaches their FMA students classes in (say) Southern Praying Mantis or Shotokan.

    Yet it seems as if these same teachers have no problem with taking a few hours instruction on stick and knife and teaching it to their students as "FMA", especially to a student base that doesn't know what the FMAs are, but they sure as heck know to trust and respect their teacher. These people learn crappy FMA, earn a shiny new black belt and before too long they are teaching crappy FMA to their own students.

    I guess whether I would support the idea of training under an uncertified teacher would depend totally on the people involved.
     
  16. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    Unfortunately Carol there is quite a bit of that going on and it is sad. [​IMG]
     
  17. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    I hate to throw my 2 pesos in this conversation, but there have been times in my past martial study where there has been a wide amount of uncertified instructors in the combatives field..

    With the balintawak and sinko tiros study that I have had with Master Rafael Reston, he didn't present certificates to prove that he had studied with the people he did in the past as far as eskrima, but when he was a member of the US Army after ww2, he studied in Japan and received the equivalent of certificates by instructors at the time.. The last certificate of rank that GM Reston received dealing with martial arts was his promotion to 8th Dan Blackbelt in Goju ryu back in 1975.. I have seen all of his certificates dealing with the Japanese arts that he studied and they will be listed in his biography once I finish editing it and getting it published.. This will cover his past history as a Filipino Guerrilla during WW2 and the subsequent training that he had in martial arts prior and after the war up until his death in 2003. This book will cover the history of the sinko tiros system that he taught and in which I am currently teaching to people who are interested as well as the balintawak system that he trained in.
     
  18. geezer

    geezer Member

    That about sums it up for me too.

    By the way Carol, did you ever notice my questions about the correct pronunciation of the FMA terms in your glossary?
     
  19. Carol

    Carol <font color = blue><b>Technical Administrator</b><

    I missed that! My sincerest apologies. I've gone back to college part-time so between school and work and training, I've been spread a little bit thin. I've answered. I wish I had a better answer for you, however.
     
  20. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    Well now you say that, there is a guy I know of here in the UK who does TKD and has learnt from a few DVD's and couple of lessons and a couple of seminars, I know him quite well, as a matter of fact I took him on in my group to train, he has got to what I would consider a very basic student level, the equivallent of Green Belt.

    I heard yesterday when he had his Christmas Party last Sunday (yes Xmas party at the end of January??? Aparently it was cheeper for him) for his club, he handed out 2 instructor levels in FMA??? Let's just say I am not a happy bunny rabbit and when I go up to that area to teach my old school that I left to one of my seniors, I will be having a few chioce words to say to him. I guess he thought I would not get wind of it and he would just slip through the net eh!

    I will keep you up dated

    Best regards

    Pat
     

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