Would you accept a challange in your school?

Discussion in 'General' started by Kali Cowboy, Feb 5, 2008.

  1. scubamatt

    scubamatt New Member

    I've only seen this 'gunfighter mentality' once at a dojo (a non-FMA style).

    A guy comes in, talks with the instructor and says he wants to watch (presumably he may decide to become a student later). About 30 mins into the class he interrupts and says he thinks our stuff sucks, our instructor sucks, and so forth. He never swears but he's clear about what he thinks, and challenges the sensai to a fight. Sure enough, he's got gear in a bag. After a minute or so of discussion, our instructor says "Sign the training waiver, or leave." The guy doesn't want to sign anything, but the instructor points out that if our style is so inferior he should have nothing to be afraid of. The word 'afraid' hits a nerve, I guess. The guy signs the waiver and then squares off with the instructor - or starts to, anyway - and the instructor destroys the guy on the spot. We all watch quietly as the guy rolls around on the floor in a daze, then flops over and crawls to a wall, then pulls himself up. The guy is really mad, and tells our instructor that he 'cheated' because he wasn't ready.

    Our instructor says 'Sorry, we train for combat here, not sport. Are you ready now?" The guy asks about the sparring gear, and the instructor says "Sorry, those are for students, so they don't injure themselves while they learn. Are you ready now?" The guy says he wants to put on the sparring gear, and our instructor replies, "Our style is so inferior you won't need them for protection. Are you ready now?" The guy shakes his head and holds up his hands, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake. Can I leave?"

    Our instructor walks the guy to the door (very politely) and then hands him a business card. "When you are ready, to fight or to learn how to fight, please come back. We have plenty of waivers." We never saw the man again, and our instructor resumed class as if nothing at all had happened. I guess, to him, nothing had.
     
  2. Guro Marc

    Guro Marc New Member

    Being Challenged by Outsider

    Walking into somelse's school and challenging them is bad manners. I am known in my area as liking to spar with others and an have been reffered to by other schools as local champion as I have won a lot of tournaments. I enjoy trying my style against others. I will go visiting and will spar if they are willing. For those who go visiting and think that want to challenge others this is what I recommend: If you are looking for match call the school arrange a visit, if asked to sign a wavier, sign it. If they say they teach weapons, ask if they spar. Be ready to fight like you mean it if they agree. If you want a private match as teacher to teacher arrange it privately. If really want to fight them publicly invite them to local tournament to square off. Be ready to fight, have someone their to watch your back. Many of the FMA schools in my area have been open to sparring with other as long as the match was equal in size and training. Be willing to make friends and maybe even help at their school if asked, it has happen to me. Keep in friendly and who knows the person you fight might become your new best friend.
     
  3. scubamatt

    scubamatt New Member

    This is really sound advice, too. Its like the old adage 'praise in public, criticise in private'. If you are simply wanting to try your system versus another, then private matches make sense. Publicly 'calling someone out' seems like cowboy stuff - not what a professional would do.
     
  4. Kali Cowboy

    Kali Cowboy New Member

    Easy on the "Cowboy Stuff!". I am a gun totin', knife wieldin', horse ridin', Cowboy....LOL. I prefer "Hollywood Stuff".

    God Bless
    Guro Stephen
     
  5. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    The only thing sound about Marc's post is the following excerpt:

    What is the difference between Marc's initial comments and the experience of Kali Cowboy's? If you are requesting to "try your style against others" you ARE challenging. And you only need one individual to take you serious and find yourself on the receiving end.

    Sure testing is always good. However, I leave that to the betterment of my students. It is done through tournaments or casual sparring with peers under different rules.

    What is professional about this?

    I am known in my area....

    have been reffered to by other schools as local champion as I have won a lot of tournaments....

    I enjoy trying my style against others...

    I will go visiting and will spar if they are willing...

    If they say they teach weapons, ask if they spar...

    Be ready to fight like you mean it if they agree....

    If you want a private match as teacher to teacher arrange it privately...

    If really want to fight them publicly invite them to local tournament to square off...

    Be ready to fight, have someone their to watch your back...

    TOOT, TOOT, TOOT!
     
  6. Guro Marc

    Guro Marc New Member

    More thoughts on Challenging

    Why would you go challenging other schools?- My reason is simple, I wanted to be ready for the WEKAF Nationals. Yes, it is personal goal. My thought is simply this if all you ever fight is the same guys then you never get better for tournament with many different styles. To be ready for the best in the Nation is not a small task. So this Saturday my son & I will be fighting the best in the nation for shot at the WEKAF USA team.
    My post is as advice to others that may dream of being a champion want to know what it takes to get that mountain. I have made alot of really good friends along the way.
     
  7. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    Challenge would be incorrect then. Maybe "exchange" or general sparring session is better suitable. Proposing or issuing a challenge is viewed much differently and always negatively.

    Sparring with other groups while limiting it to WEKAF play is nothing more than friendly sport sparring. And yes an approach to self improvement BUT certainly NOT a challenge.

    A champion is first and foremost humble...not always tooting his own horn.

    Secondly, a champion in WEKAF play or member of a team is not necessarily representative of a tested eskrimador. You do not have to have a title or be a team player to best someone in a tournament setting.

    Additionally, many tourney players are out done in limited armor skirmishes.

    IMO...considering WEKAF accomplishments a method of self-proclaiming "champion" skills is somewhat delusional. I am not knocking WEKAF since I too was an avid tournament player many moons ago. Unfortunately it is by no means an accurate testament to the combat arts of Eskrima, Kali & Arnis. There are countless fighters who are too skilled in the "combat aspect" of FMA to worry about sport winning a point tournament.


    Just my thoughts...
     
  8. Guro Marc

    Guro Marc New Member

    Difference between Fighting and Tournaments

    John J brings up a good point, that is the is huge difference between tournament fighting-Sport and combat. Within Sport tournament there different ways they are held with different levels of equipment and types of sticks. We have USFMAF that uses padded sticks, point fighting,and limited gear. We have WEKAF that uses live skinny stick, a boxing like score system, and lots of gear, We have DB style that uses heavy stick, limited gear, a limited rules system. There are also other that are blend of them, but it still for sport. True combat is different, the rule is stay alive there are no other rules. Peace Officers,LEOs and military have rules engagement or arrest. Not an easy thing to do when the Sh@# hits the fan.
     
  9. Silat

    Silat New Member

    Yea a professional business man would call the police if challenged to a fight because they are not a Fighting Art Instructor and probably can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag!

    If Engineer (A) was challenged & belittled by engineer (B) to create a certain object then Engineer (A) would step up to the plate and try to make the object to prove his skill, knowledge and worth. He would not call the police and say I'm being picked on, bullied and challenged!

    So when a Fighting Arts Instructor is challenged they step up to the plate the same way only it involves some sort of fight/sparring/contest.

    I make anyone challenging me agree to the following:

    1. Sign a waiver form
    2. Sign an agreement to a test of skills
    3. Sign a release of all video rights
    4. Video tape the contest

    This way everything is legal and I'm covered if they are stupid enough to take it to court. I have not had anyone to date take me up on this and they usually never show up or leave still talking trash.

    I don't necessarily do all this to cover my ass legally but to preserve the integrity of the contest. I know of an individual named Richard that when he was backed down by many challengers at his school in the early 90's he later changed the details of the story to be the brave one backing the other party down. So this made me come up with the idea of all the paper & video proof.

    Now maybe I'm just a shot-out ex-cop but I think what Stephen did was outstanding and I congratulate him with the highest honor.

    Sincerely,
    Teacher: Eddie Ivester
     
  10. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    Well Eddie, I to like you worked professionally in the Law Enforcement field. Frankly if some snot nosed punk comes into my training hall challenging me then he can hit the road or talk to the police. (which probably won't be all that long if you know what I mean [​IMG]) Bottom line the chance if we are engaging in a fight in the Training Hall of myself seriously injuring them is high just as I imagine if you had an engagement with someone it would be high as well. The waiver, agreement of test of skills, video release and video will not stop that person or their family from suing you if they end up seriously hurt. (think paralyzed, broken bones, face needing to be restructered, etc. as anything can happen) Now if they went immediately into an attack on you well that would be different and you would be defending yourself within the law and if that happened with me they would be going to jail after being restrained. [​IMG]

    Personally when I lived in downtown Detroit I taught outside. Every once in awhile someone would say something. (myself being of a different race) So I would say give me a second and proceed to do some throws with my students after that they were gone every time. [​IMG]

    Now a days my Training Hall is private. Show up late and you will not even get in the doors. Have a cocky attitude and you will not train but be shown the door. If you are a student and want to test me through a friendly sparring exchange then by all means we do that all the time. (heck I just rolled last night with some young guns during their private lesson) If you are a neighboring instructor and want to train then also by all means come and train and eventually you will get to spar, roll, etc. Still if you are a punk and come to challenge me or any of my students in the training hall you will be told to hit the road bub or talk to the police as I have very little time for losers nor do I tolerate them well! [​IMG]

    As to a professional business man. Well if I relied on business from my Training Hall then I would indeed be hurting. I train people to be able to protect and take care of their loved ones when the chips are down. [​IMG]
     
  11. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    By the way I am all for friendly sparring exchanges and I am always looking to work out with different people! [​IMG]
     
  12. Imua Kuntao

    Imua Kuntao New Member

    Signing waviers is not an option here in Texas. In the state of Texas nobody can wave any rights away (a little known fact). when we get students to sign a release form, I know it will not stand up in a court of law here in this state. Accepting challenges can be very bad for all involved, leagelly and otherwise.
     
  13. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

    Are you saying I can't fight because I want to set a good example for my students?
     
  14. Carol

    Carol <font color = blue><b>Technical Administrator</b><

    Dropping one's pants for every yahoo that wanders in looking for a measuring contest doesn't valuate a person's effectiveness at striking. The closest metric to that sort of behaviour is one of self-control.
     
  15. Brock

    Brock Asha'man

    Nah, he's saying that martial arts professionals such as us can't fight our way outta' wet paper bags. I don't know about you sir, but I myself have never been foolish enough to get caught in a paper bag, wet or otherwise, so I don't see the sense in knowing how to fight my way outta' one. I'll stick to fighting people, but only when my life, not my ego, is in danger.
     
  16. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Yes, that's the only sensible thing to do.
     
  17. Silat

    Silat New Member

    Tim,

    What I said was in plain English! There was no innuendos or beating around the bush!

    Reread my post again and don't take it personally and you should comprehend exactly what I said.

    Sincerely,
    Teacher: Eddie Ivester
     
  18. Silat

    Silat New Member

    What is a Martial Arts Professional?

    That's a big fancy title for Martial Arts Instructor unless your not an instructor, perhaps you just own a martial arts supply company or run tournaments or whatever.

    The statement was very clear and had nothing to do with a Martial Arts Instructor.

    Sincerely,
    Teacher: Eddie Ivester
     
  19. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    Eddie, Eddie, Eddie,

    Stirring the fecal pot again? Time to cool your jets and not stir up things that will lead to the flame wars of past.. The people who run this forum are good for the progression of what we train in.. Let's not start the flame wars as we have in the past..

    This forum is for the passing along of information, questions and answers about the different styles of the IMA/FMA asked by people who want to know about the differences.. Let's not draw it into a pissing contest over misunderstandings.. Hell, both you and I have been involved with flame wars that would make the napalm bombing of Dresden look like a boy scout camp fire, but we agreed to disagree on certain points..

    So, before this blows up into a firebombing of tokyo or dresden war, let's take a deep breath and step back to view the whole picture.

    :apc:
     
  20. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Adat & Hormat kind sirs, Adat & Hormat...lest thee forget the mustaqeen of pencak silat...one truly wonders!
     

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