wing chun response to slashing knife attack

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by equilibrium, Sep 9, 2009.

  1. equilibrium

    equilibrium New Member

    Wing Tzun (EBMAS) response to slashing knife. These guys do wing chun but also Latosa Escrima.

    knife slash response
     
  2. Thanks for posting.

    It's always nice to see my former instructors Sifu Mike and Si-hing Per in action :)
     
  3. puntadas

    puntadas New Member

    time tells all

    I see no real Wing Chun here...
     
  4. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Opening sequence...was a right hand fox sao with the left hand coming from the wu sao position to support. Wing Chun is a highly misunderstood art, the reason why is so many Wing Chun practitioners remain deep in a gilded little box. There is also various lineages of Wing Chun outside of the Hong Kong Ip Man work, The Gao Lo, Yuen Kay Sahn, Vietnamese wingchun etc. ...Like all great methods of martial arts Wing Chun is simple movement, to look at as anything but defeats the purpose of the system. People make Wing Chun into something difficult, it is not...it is direct, simple and concise....take it out of the box and explore it's depth and you will see far more than originally intended. Motion is motion....keep it simple....
     
  5. Yep, I noticed that too Mike but forgot the name (it's been a while!) - all I could come up with was "fak Sau" - but it's the one that looks like a reverse tan sau anyway.


    Something else to factor in is that until a certain higher-level stage Wing Chun is an empty-handed art based on tactile reflexes (a touch system). It used to be the first weapon they would use was the pole - after 5 years or so in this lineage. I also heard that when they learn the butterfly knives the emphasis moves away from tactile to visual - but again you're talking lots of years and lots of $$$...so I doubt that this material is easily accessible.

    (If you can find anybody to teach you the Butterfly knife form).

    That's why it makes sense for these guys to also offer "Latosa Escrima" classes as well.

    If I had a $ for every-time I've read people write "it doesn't look like Wing Chun" I would be out of debt by now... :(

    I was also working out with a Pan Nam Wing Chun instructor at the weekend who is visiting the P.I. It's very soft and different from the Yip Man Lineage. If you saw that and didn't know what it was you probaly wouldn't have guessed it was WC either.

    Going back to the clip I remember somebody questioning a wing-chun technique Sifu Emin did once. He said it was too quick to see but if you slow it down it is there. That's the same with this video. It is only the latter part when it is repeated in slow motion was I able to see the application Sifu Mike was doing.

    Anyway, Mike and Per are both great instructors (and Eskrimadors!) so you could do far worse if you're in the L.A area.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2009
  6. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Most Wing Chun is taught in a drawn out fashion. It need not be that way. The long pole and the knives are extremely simple sets that should be learned in between the 3 empty hand forms...the Muk Jong as well....I learn through my sifu who is very practical and straight forward...no fuss no muss...it isn't dogmatic drawn out dribble to keep one in his midst. The system of WC was never intended to take ions to learn, on the contrary there is no reason why a student cannot learn the entire system in 3 years max (you have a lifetime to master it). It is simple motion that is all. In the west these systems are drawn out and marketed because greedy instructors wish to cash in. People need to learn and be able to use what they have now, today, not ten years from now.

    The longer these systems take to learn (due to instructors who are box dwellers) the less effective they become...you literally suck the mana right out of them by turning them into dance as opposed to their root, self preservation!
     
  7. puntadas

    puntadas New Member

    perhaps you can explain what a fox sau is Mike, I can't see it!
     
  8. After asking the Pan Nam Sifu and on reflection I think it was "Jum sau"



    33 seconds in shows a good shot of it. I may be wrong.

    Anyway, it's just terminology - the movement and end result is what counts.
    [/FONT]
     
  9. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Simple motion..that's all it is...screw the name, screw the technique what matters is the ability to use it and any other tool in your tool box. To many people get hooked up on technique or nameing something ( a straight drop into a box to be sure). I despise the dogma driven crappola....just flow simply with intent. What's in a name anyhow? Life is far to short, just dig the journey and it will all come out in the wash.
     
  10. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Agreed. The two key principles here are the ability to cover center-line without any wasted movement (i.e. the arms travel straight up without deviating to the side first to create an arc), and the lateral footwork/waist turn that allows the arms to redirect the flow of the attack into the shoulder lock.

    This technique have been any other technique but as long as those two key principles are followed you stand a reasonable chance of success. Meeting the attacking limb with either hand and redirecting the attack while using a Pekiti side-step, for example, would follow the same principles.

    Principles and fundamentals, principles and fundamentals....

    Best,

    Steve
     
  11. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Having studied Pekiti for several years I wholeheartedly agree! There are options galore here...just find what works best for you and hone it...own it..and feel it.

    It's all in the grind Grimesy, it's all in the grind!
     
  12. geezer

    geezer Member

    In response to Puntadas' question about what Wing Chun techniques are being used, I can give an educated guess here. Back in the 80's and early 90's I studied the "WT" system that Emin Boztepe and Michael Casey hail from. Of course, Emin's own EBMAS system has evolved considerably since then and they may have changed some of the names.

    Anyway, the initial deflection with the arm appears to begin as an upward "man-sau" performed simultaneously with a lateral step and closing movement. This particular man-sau appears as a upward double-handed movement in the WT Chum Kiu form. Here it is converted into a palm-down "fook-sau" or controlling "bridge-on" hand. "Fak-sau" or "whisking arms" is a different, lateral striking movement.

    My personal take is that this man-sau deflection/control/grapple sequence works a whole lot better against a committed strike with a blunt object, like a bottle or club than against a knife. But then again what doesn't? Going empty handed up against a knife really sucks... no matter how good you are.

    Now Puntadas, in spite about having just said all that bushwah about terminology, I really have to recommend that you take another look at the quote below. IMHO Mike is right on the money.

     
  13. puntadas

    puntadas New Member

    400 yr old training method, deemed worthless, by charlatan

    so according to you guys the content & order of learning the wing chun system is not important; what is important is that you blow your trumpet for lack of learning, and to add insult to injury - your buddies climb on board to support this lack of learning; and I've little doubt you'd stoop as low as to use intimidation within your repertoire of non-skill in teaching nonsense.

    Here's a better idea, let's make up a new kung fu & we'll call it Punk Fu.
     
  14. wes tasker

    wes tasker New Member

    Mr. Joffe-

    I hope this finds you well. On another thread you posted this:

    Then your last post on this topic is:

    I'm assuming you have some Wing Chun training so instead of supporting your own statements as to the problems, according to you, with this forum (which I know we're straying away from FMA...) why don't you let us know a little as to why you believe what you initially posted on this thread:

    I do not know much about Wing Chun except for some passing exposure to the Cheung Bo/Sup Yee Sik and Kulo/Pien Sun (I'm sure I spelled them wrong....) systems that a good friend of mine does and I would welcome a chance to learn more from someone who has alot of experience. Thank you.

    -wes tasker
     
  15. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Steve,

    Nice talking to you the other day. Drop me an email and we can continue the conversation.

    I believe that Geezer is being self-effacing here. His comments are not direced specifically at you - but at himself...

    I am not really sure why so many posts on this forum turn into into a hash-slinging contest. The point of a martial arts forum is to discuss martial arts, not to see whose Richard swings the longest.

    Best,

    Steve
     
  16. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Who said this? Talk about jumping the proverbial gun. I simply said what I saw based on my experience within the system of wing chun, that's all. You see things differently obviously. But isn't that what makes the martial world go round? Or perhaps you believe that YOU and YOU alone hold the grail to all things martial..hmm me thinks the latter!


    Again no one said that I can see. Wing Chun has an order for the training granted..but there will come a time when the order is a moot point and I bet you a dollar to a donut that every teacher teaches it differently. I have trained with teachers who teach the weaponry out of order and in some lineages forms are not taught. YES, there is more than one lineage of Wing Chun...(Ip Man isn't the lone ranger of Wing Chun).. As far as your snide little quip of lack of learning..lol..how droll. Come on vato you can do better than that...if your gonna blast away do it with some cojones. Nothing worse than a yappy pup. The only nonsense I have seen here is from you Puntadas. I had several pm's from folks here on FMA talk warning me of you..hmm it seems your reputation for spreading dung is quite formidable, and your people skills are that of a neophyte trying to garner attention through a know it all mentality which truly falls into a deep, cavernous box.

    Punk Fu? Well, punk fu you to...I thought perhaps you changed the name of what you do to Who Flung Poo..every time you post it seems to draw flies. Perhaps a course in waste management can help you.

    This cat takes the cake..lol...man oh man! Hey the world needs box dwellers and ditch diggers as well. grab your shovel vato and head for China...but make sure you do it in a 400 year old manner with etiquette and structure..

    I expect a lengthy banning due to this post..so have at it administrators..but sooner or later dip **** gravy boats like this need to be checked.

    See ya'll when they let me back on the forum... !

    PS. I am unsure who Puntada (or whatever the F that is) is directing his remarks at but I had to say something...I woke up in a pissy mood and figured I might as well blast away on something..might as well be his box dwelling ass.....uh oh another week suspension...hmmm, does FMA Talk have Ad-Seg?.....get the shackles boys!
     
  17. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Everyone is welcome to disagree, but we must do so respectfully! That's what we ask.

    -Arnisador
    -FMAT Admin
     
  18. It is important - sure. I loved the progression to the system and the few forms with 100s of applications. However, what's the point in only being able to use Wing Chun after 10 years of training?

    That was the goal of the EBMAS system when I was part of it. To give students something they could use in a short space of time. They had their "Street Defense" program and also "Classical" program too.

    Like I've said...I've actually trained with these guys and been put on my arse by both of them. Once Mike Casey hit me so hard through a big air-shield pad I actually went horizontal...

    Go and see them and question their "Lack of Wing Chun" in person - not on a forum. If LA is too far then simply look up any Ebmas senior instructor.

    If something does not stand up to scrutiny it is not valid.

    In martial arts it's better to perform that scrutiny in person for maximum results...
     
  19. puntadas

    puntadas New Member

    hamming it up, in full view of the public?

    Dudes!!!

    - again, it must be very difficult to portray Wing Chun on film - as per Krav shoot, Mike Caseys' compliant partner does not allow anything, but a very small taste of what real Wing Chun Kung Fu power is...

    PG Mike B, you been very helpful in demonstrating that WC cannot be encapsulated within a reductionist and coarse appreciation; it is there for everyone & last time I checked ~ widely considered 'a gentlemans kung fu'.

    You are correct, true WC is not hard to learn ~ we no longer live in the dark ages! & I'm sure you do an excellent job in your own realm, I've certainly enjoyed your posts... keep on.

    10 years? b4 the use of WC, no, no, no... Yip Man clearly stated to his students "once you have siu nim tau & chum kiu, you should be able to beat any kung fu!" & so his students began testing themselves, early! (these guys must have had cajones, eh!)

    As for the airpad dealee wotsit, that sounds fun; my Sifu just didn't do it this way.

    Respect Gentlemen.
     
  20. Yip Man also said something along the lines of if a student of his who knows Chum Ku lost a fight he would jump off the roof of his house...

    As discussed earlier, 10 years until Wing Chun students see a bladed weapon - maybe longer. Nothing to say they can't apply the concepts learned to knife-fighting though.

    The airpad? I held it. He (Sifu Mike Casey) stepped with wing-chun footwork and knocked me horizontal with one punch.
     

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