What about empty hands?

Discussion in 'Lameco' started by gagimilo, Oct 31, 2008.

  1. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    Can anyone please give me some information about what type of of work PG Sulite was teaching in regards of empty hands fighting? Specifically I mean in a context of dealing with another empty handed opponent/attacker...
     
  2. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    What, nobody cares to share some info on this?
     
  3. jeff5

    jeff5 New Member

    My knowledge of Lamenco is admittedly limited but I don't believe PG Edgar taught empty hands against empty hands. (only against knife) I could be wrong though, so someone who knows the system very well should chime in.
     
  4. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    Yeah, I was hoping we would have people like guros Agbulos, Balani and Gould offer some advice on this issue.
     
  5. corwin137

    corwin137 Slayer of knuckledraggers

    Have seen the post for some days, but haven't answered because I have some stuff that's mixed up with what I've learned from PG Sulite's lineage, and we've never clearly defined where it's come from in all cases. It's a little clumsy for me, in part because I don't think that it's important to maintain such things in boxes, unless one is specifically interested from a historical (for lack of a longer description) standpoint.

    Have gotten much of the obvious, that I'm fairly certain came from Edgar- sikos, sectoring/time hitting and etc. Being more specific than that though, gets into areas that might've come more from Guro Dan by interpretation, John LaCoste, my instructor and etc. I've rarely met someone that can transmit specifics purely, and in a vacuum. Am glad there's people who do maintain the purity of a system- it's just not as relevant for me personally, in context.
     
  6. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    Oh, I agree in view of the fact that the origins of some technique/method have nothing to do with its functionality. But, as you noted, I asked more out of a historical curiosity. In that regard, would you care to elaborate alittle bit on what do you mean under "sectoring/time hitting".

    Thanx!
     
  7. el maldito de cebu

    el maldito de cebu New Member

    Ya I agree to it it depends how the practitioners are using there knowledge that they gain in the every situation that they encounter which makes eskrima evolve because of unknow technique just comes out.
     
  8. corwin137

    corwin137 Slayer of knuckledraggers

    Simultaneous defense and counterattack. The language probably comes both from Dan Inosanto and Steve Grody. I think "time hitting" is probably Dan's term, "sectoring" Steve's. Again, in historical context- don't take my word for it. Only keep the terms to have a way to organize material.

    From both "opponents" in traditional (boxers) leads for instance: "O" throws a high line jab (left lead), "D" parries with the right hand, just enough to get the punch off-line from the head, simultaneously striking with his/her own left lead, effectively "splitting" the two hands with O's jab, hence a "split sector".

    This of course is in a vacuum, and can't be forced- they gotta be used in context if at all. Meaning, there's several different "sectors" or "time hits" for different circumstances that are essentially guided by your movement, your "opponents'", and where everyones' hands are at the time. Split, inside parry and hit (up the middle), outside parry and hit (both the parrying hand and the striking hand outside the offending limb), cut (over the top of the offending limb), one based on pak sao (in JKD terms), and a "guide and hit" (would take some detail to describe).

    These aren't specific to Lameco that I know of, but am guessing that Guro Edgar had some organization of the material. Maybe the organization came from Dan. However, boxers of course use similar ideas, JKD players (whatever they are), Sambo guys, etc. That said though- I've not seen the material organized in this way by anyone that doesn't have a decidedly FMA background.
     
  9. el maldito de cebu

    el maldito de cebu New Member

    I agree you should also eplore some fields of your art to discover its weakness and transform it into strenght. very well expalined my freind.[​IMG]
     
  10. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    Ah, so... I am familiar with that terminology via Ron Balicki's videos, just wasn't sure if you meant the same. Thanks for clarification.
     
  11. corwin137

    corwin137 Slayer of knuckledraggers

    Ron does have at least similar material, coming from a similar lineage. Dunno if he trained with PG Sulite, but Ron trained with Dan, who trained with Edgar. All the stuff I'm describing is detailed nicely on Steve Grody's videos...
    http://stevegrody.com/

    Some of it is also covered on some of Dan's different vids.
     
  12. Guro Dave Gould

    Guro Dave Gould LAMECO ESKRIMA SYSTEM

    "Mano-Mano" Portion of Lameco Eskrima.

    Dragan,

    Hello there I hope that all is well with you and that you are keeping challenged by your daily training. I as well was hoping that one of my other Lameco Eskrima brothers would jump in and comment on Lameco Eskrima related topics on this forum. Which is primarily the reason that I have been distancing myself from the forum in recent months. Now to answer your query.

    As I have stated in earlier posts that Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite did not consider Lameco Eskrima as being primarily a weapon based form of fighting or an empty-hand form of fighting but rather one system that could translate itself equally effective while utilizing anything that could be placed in the human hand to the point of having nothing and being forced to translate the aspects of the system "buto-buto" (bone to bone).

    While training under Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite for numerous years we were all required to learn and become proficient with all weapons, weapon combinations and empty-hand solutions the same. Under the tutelage of Punong Guro Sulite we all began first with the delivery system in developing adequate speed, timing, power, position, perception and reaction, recovery measures, deception, deviation, interrogating centerline, manufacturing opportunity, resolving obstructions, non-telegraphic striking, location & relocation principles, non-cooperation, counter measures and counter to counter measures to mention just a few of the more important components of the delivery system.

    As we developed and maintained the most basic combative foundation we began to build on that foundation with various techniques, concepts and sound combative principles. All things that we trained eventually gets thrown up against reality to see how they fare unexpectedly against a non-compliant training partner attacking and countering in real time with the intent to force failure onto all parties involved. What each decides to do with that failure in terms of recovery measures will dictate how one would actually fare for real on the street while being forced to defend against the unexpected and unwanted aggression that only the street can bring forth.

    Punong Guro Sulite always said that the recovery of a single failed attempt on target in actual combat was more valuable than 1,000 successful techniques delivered in a heavily compliant training environment where you were always allowed to succeed uncontested in an environment filled with false confidense and complacency. In combat it is not the first strike that should give you grave concern for your life but rather the second, third or fourth that will quickly follow the first attempt which should concern you the most. It is not what you readily expect in combat which will kill you but rather that which you do not expect that will end in spilling your lifes blood on the cold hard ground beneath you.

    So concerning all tools to include empty-hand tools in training we are thrown into a non-compliant environment and introduced to unexpected chaos and mayhem from our training partner and what ever technique, concept or principle which best comes forth as the most reasonable solution will be utilized. After all expected and unexpected exchanges of aggression have been made, if properly delivered and if necessary recovered what happens in the moment will be the right course of action for that specific confrontation.

    Concerning empty-hand all tools such as punches, kicks, elbows, knees, head-butts, breaks, hair-pulling, gouging the eyes, stomping limbs, stomping through the head, tearing the throat out, pulling a knife, picking up a rock, utilizing a broken shard of glass found on the street, utilizing the broken neck of a beer bottle or picking up a two-by-four off the ground will all be used with positive effect as dictated by the situation and accessability of weapons of opportunity. We were all taught to go into combat looking only to survive and anything accessible to us becomes an instrument of death if necessary and the combative techniques, concepts and principles guide and govern the use of that instrument until completion. Both lethal or less-than-lethal results will be dictated solely by the situation, totally being decided based on the threat faced and escalation of force necessitated or felt in the heat of combat in utilizing weapons or empty-hand in like manner.

    Again I feel the need to reiterate that the weapon used is irrelevant to the point of not using a weapon at all and forced to respond empty handed. How we respond will be similar with empty-hand or weapons alike with the only differentiating factor being determined by the emphasis of weapon or empty-hand technique delivered on impact. The delivery system and foundation guides and governs everything that we do in response to aggression faced on the street be it with weapons, weapons of opportunity or empty-handed solutions alike.

    I hope that I have answered your question. Go well, ciao.

    Guro Dave Gould.
     
  13. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    Ahhh, guro Gould!
    Great post as always from you. Thanks for your input, sir! I was wondering where did all the previously frequent Lameco elders here disappear...
     
  14. septs

    septs New Member

    i think this is a great idea..
     
  15. Rudy Franco

    Rudy Franco New Member

    Dave,

    Where can we see some example of LAMECO empty hand skills or transitions from impact weapon to bladed weapon to empty handed skill in application or real time?

    Rudy Franco
     
  16. Guro Dave Gould

    Guro Dave Gould LAMECO ESKRIMA SYSTEM

    "Buto-buto"

    Rudy,

    Hi, sorry for the delay in responding to your query. Quite honestly any spare time that I have these days is spent either working-out, training or teaching. Which leaves very little time available for writing on public forums.

    Now I will attempt to answer your query, you wrote:

    >>> " Where can we see some example of LAMECO empty hand skills?" <<<

    Actually, everything that I have concerning empty-hand material featured in Lameco Eskrima is old footage captured on video of Punong Guro Sulite. This is a private collection that he entrusted to me with the understanding that it should not be released to the general public. I am sure that the next time that you train with Roger Agbulos if asked he would share with you.

    >>> "Or transitions from impact weapon to bladed weapon to empty handed skill in application? <<<

    First I feel the need to go into greater detail about the empty-handed portion of our curriculum, as there seems to be some misunderstandings concerning this material.

    As I previously indicated that Lameco Eskrima is not primarily a stick fighting system, a sword fighting system or a knife fighting system that transitions itself into an empty-hand system. Rather it is a combative system that can be translated equally effective regardless of weapon or non-weapon utilization regarding street combat.

    Lameco Eskrima is not a system based on a series of techniques and maneuvers, but rather it is a system that is based purely on combative movement and effect. Punong Guro Sulite was not a Master of numerous dead series of techniques and redundant drills but rather he was a Master of combative movement and effect. Meaning that his ability to adapt, adjust and change in concert with a combative situation as it naturally escalates and expands was of major importance, moreso than the technique, principle or concept that he would actually use to take advantage of any weakness exposed to him in defending life and limb on the streets.

    So... Punong Guro Sulite would not think of lets say for example a double stick technique and configure how to translate that same technique as it should be applied empty-handed. He would simply use empty hand tools as they should naturally be utilized to minimize risk and best maximize effect. In other words he would use a finger jab as a finger jab, a punch as a punch, a kick as a kick, an elbow as an elbow, a knee as a Knee and a head-butt as a head-butt and so forth.

    Lameco Eskrima is not a collection of techniques, drills, concepts and principles. Rather it is a system of understanding combative movement and how to counter that movement in an unexpected, non-compliant and extremely aggressive environment which can only be governed by the natural laws of cause and effect.

    In Lameco Eskrima we learn the foundation of the system first and foremost which by default is the system. "Sistema ng Dalhin" is our delivery system and these are the fundamentals on which everything is mastered in Lameco Eskrima. Only after a strong basic combative foundation has been successfully mastered and functionalized can technique, combative principles and concepts begin to shape and form combative effect in a non-compliant training environment where one is held solely accountable for ones actions or failure to act in combat.

    So... Concerning empty-hand solutions just as with knife, sword or stick we begin laying the basic foundation in developing our physical attributes such as: speed, timing, power and position. Then we specialize in non-telegraphic striking, recovery measures and perception & reaction. Then we familiarize ourselves with tactile sesitivity, clearing obstructions and non-cooperation. Then we master the line of engagement, negotiating range(s) and breaching the gap. Then we learn center line interrogation, manufacturing opportunity and deception. Then we master counter measures, counter to counter measures, reclaiming center line and so on and so forth.

    As you can see our empty-hand portion of the curriculum is not a clone of our weapon based usage but an entity unto itself that is free to evolve and expand based on its own needs and necessities as dictated by the combative situation itself. You will use a stick differently than you would use a sword, and a sword differently than a knife and a knife differently than a punch or a kick or a head butt. The weapon, tool or body-part is what dictates usage not system or style as the emphasis of each weapon can solely dictate proper useage unto itself.

    Actual experience & actual fighting contribute more to ones combative abilities and development than training can ever possibly contribute. Which is why in Lameco Eskrima the way that we train has to resemble as much as possible the way that we would expect to fight in the streets. If combat is the role model for our training then all elements that would be associated with actual combat have to be present and accounted for in our training environment in like manner. The closer that we align our training environment with the actual environment the more capable that we will become in that environment. As Punong Guro Sulite used to teach us when we train with weakness and compromise they will both follow us into combat, unless that is we remove them first from our training environment and allow our training to brush up as close as possible to reality.

    >>> "or real time?" <<<

    In the intermediate and advanced levels of Lameco Eskrima all training is done in real time as the opportunities that one will experience in real time is quite different than the opportunities that one would experience in a complacent training environment. When training slow and steady ones opportunities are measured in seconds and feet whereas in real time those same opportunities are measured in in nano-seconds and centimeters, the same distance as is found between life and death.

    Train well, ciao.

    Guro Dave Gould.
     
  17. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    Thanks for another elaborate contribution sir!
    Anyway, I am still wondering if the empty handed embodiment of Lameco methodology (if I can put it that way) takes into account the inherent differences, comparing with weapons combat, such as the fact that in empty handed combat one can engage in trading blows if they feel are better prepared for that than the opponent, while with the weapons that certainly should not be the case?
    Still, I remember the story about your teaching of Korean armed forces, which seems to be a fairly good illustration what you are talking about...
     
  18. Guro Dave Gould

    Guro Dave Gould LAMECO ESKRIMA SYSTEM

    Dragan,

    Hello, as always I hope that life is going well with you. Now to respond to your query, you wrote:

    >>> "I am still wondering if the empty handed embodiment of Lameco methodology (if I can put it that way) takes into account the inherent differences, comparing with weapons combat, such as the fact that in empty handed combat one can engage in trading blows if they feel are better prepared for that than the opponent, while with the weapons that certainly should not be the case?" <<<

    No, I do not intend on "trading blows" with anyone if that can be prevented, spefically while utilizing empty hand tools, even more so regarding the use of weapons.

    Lameco Eskrima is a system that utilizes the ability to strike first and strike last even when ones opponent initiates the attack, be it with weapons or empty-hand solutions alike. My immediate objective and goal in street combat is to neutralize and force failure on a crisis situation ASAP! There by placing me well out of harms way and leaving the area of operation post haste, unscathed if possible.

    Most people announce intent well before they actualize an attack and to the very aware exists numerous opportunities to repel any forth coming attack, that is if they have trained in earnest in doing just that. Punong Guro Sulite trained us in "Kaabtik" which is alertness training as we were always charged to be aware of our surroundings and at the ready to defend our lives at the smallest invasion of our personal space, should it become necessary.

    It all comes down to escalation of force requirements as well which will dictate my response. I will always deal with the most immediate threat first and foremost as I simultaneously assess the situation and based on that assessment will my response be dictated. For instance if I detect a weapon I will use what time and space that is available to me by which to produce a weapon of equalization of my own with which to even the playing field so to speak. If I do not perceive a weapon then I will neutralize the attack empty-handed.

    >>> "Still, I remember the story about your teaching of Korean armed forces, which seems to be a fairly good illustration what you are talking about..." <<<

    Training the R.O.K. Special Forces (Songnam, Korea) was an interesting assignment, one which gave me great perspective. Yes, if you are familiar with this account this would be a perfect example of what Lameco Eskrima "Buto-buto" is all about.

    Go well Dragan, ciao.

    Guro Dave Gould.
     
  19. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    Nice clarification...seems to me that it implies (at least to a degree) the use of preemptive hitting, right?
    It brings to mind another example, the story I heard from a Black eagle Eskrima master from Australia. It is about one other Aussie FMA instructor who had made somewhat of a name for himself. Anyway, during one of his trips to the PI, to a club in Cebu where he trained, he was once confronted by a guy from Mindanao about his reputation. And while the Aussie guy was trying to show his toughness by allowing the "challenger" to come close and get involved in a stare-down contest, when a Filipino man smiled with contempt, the Aussie finally noted there was knife pressed against his groin!
    Fortunately (well, for the Aussie at least :) it ended up there, with some verbal de-escalation of the whole thing.
     
  20. Rudy Franco

    Rudy Franco New Member

    time keeps on slipping into the future...

    Dave,

    No need to apologies for your lack of time as we all have things to do with our lives. I appreciate that you took some time to write such a detailed answer to such a small question.

    Train to live, Live to train later,

    Rudy Franco
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2008

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