Weapons,Pikiti tirsia influance In Lameco

Discussion in 'Lameco' started by long range, Nov 22, 2006.

  1. long range

    long range New Member

    HI all,
    please can anyone inform to me the weapons used in the Lameco system and the progression that one is taught from say single stick to bolo.Also,how much of a influence has the Pikiti Tirsia system had on the Lameco knife drills and application's.

  2. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    This is merely a general comment. Lameco's stick work is primarily taken from the Caballero system or DeCampo Eskrima. You can see this from his single and double stick applications and the way he moves. Kali Ilustrisimo concepts are used to teach the bolo/sword method and I believe even panyo came from Maestro Tony's influence and teachings. The knife tapping comes from PTK. Not sure of the Abella influence.
  3. long range

    long range New Member

    Thanks John,
    Are there any Long stick applications in the Lameco system?Do they teach Kris,Barong,Balisong to there students?
  4. Roger Agbulos

    Roger Agbulos New Member

    Hello Long Range!

    Long stick application is to any weapon, be it Kris, Barong, Kampilan, Sundang, Pinuti, Bolo, etc....

    For all the years I have been under PG Sulite, I don't think he made any distiction between blades in the techniques. The distiction was in the characteristic of the long stick when use as a weapon during our drills - impact base or blade base. Movement was precise and not to be confused from each other.

    Edgar was considered an expert in Balisong. He even wrote a book about it. I think the primary reason why it never formally got into the LAMECO "curriculum" was that the possesion of a Balisong in California (as is in most states) is illegal. There was no real purpose for it anymore other than for exhibition purposes using dulled blades - that is if the PD won't get in your case because they are not in the mood (or vise versa?).

    JohnJ is being modest... he had a lot of private training from PG Sulite himself. I agree with your comment kapatid.
  5. Rudy Franco

    Rudy Franco New Member

    Great info...

    Keep it coming.

  6. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    Actually, I was not fortunate enough to receive any private training. My limited experience was subject to a few seminars and sharing techniques with members of SOG.
  7. long range

    long range New Member

    Thanks guy's,
    So i take it that all the weapons that Roger spoke about are used within Lameco.What other weaons are used? Where is the Espada Daga techniques taken from that are in the lemaco system? would anyone know what weapons are taught by the european Lameco instructors?
  8. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    I don't believe this is what Roger is saying. What he is stating is that the principles and methods in the Lameco system are applicable to various weapons. In terms of swords, there is no sword specific to Lameco. It is probably more an individual preference and their ability to use the art with that sword.

    I believe the Pana is also used.

    Kali Ilustrisimo is definitely an influence in the Espada y Daga methods though I am certain other systems played a role.

    Again, do not get fixated on specific weapons. The curriculum like any other system probably has a standard category of training i.e. solo and doble baston, knife, pana, E-H

    Chances are if the instructor qualified to teach the art then he would be no different than instructors here or elsewhere UNLESS, he is teaching with his own preference of weapons.
  9. Roger Agbulos

    Roger Agbulos New Member

    Well said, kapatid JohnJ . Thanks!

    Long Range,
    The influence of PTK in LAMECO is definitely big. Tuhon Leo Gaje was one of PG Sulite's mentors.
  10. phurba

    phurba New Member


    In considering the influences of other styles on Lameco, has anybody has any idea, or traced the development (practically, as in really knowing the techniques) of Lameco.

    Example, what were PG Sulite's core techniques in Lameco, and how did he move before coming to USA. Maybe his old students in Philippines might be able to answer that. Did PG Sulite teach anywhere else before arriving in USA? They might also have an idea.

    The reason why I asked is because somebody mentioned to me that PG Sulite's techniques and movements had changed considerably after he went to USA. Therefore, his final development may not be very much Cabalerro? Any thoughts?

    Peace in the Buddha,
    Lama Dorje
  11. Guro Dave Gould


    Lameco Eskrima 1981-1997...


    Hello there, I hope that all is well with you and that you are keeping challenged by your training. Now to address your queries, you wrote:

    >>> what were PG Sulite's core techniques in Lameco? <<<

    Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite drew heavily from De Campo uno-Dos-Tres Orihinal concerning garote (stick). He drew equally as much from Kali Illustrisimo concerning baraw (knife). Lameco Eskrima has always been a system of combative effect where ones abilities were always allowed to speak for combative effect, over solely learning numerous dead series of drills. He took combat itself as the model for his training regimen and he based his training environment off of that reality.

    He did not have so much core techniques but rather combative movement. He invested alot of years in developing the perfect delivery system (sistema ng dalhin) whereas the combative situation dictated opportunity and his abilities determined how long he would allow the fight to continue. He taught us more to deal with the combative situation with people factoring into the combative equation, a system where technique was always second to combative movement in general and ones over all combative capability.

    >>> How did he move before coming to USA? Maybe his old students in the Philippines might be able to answer that?<<<

    I would love to hear from some of the earlier students when Lameco Eskrima was in its infancy in this regard as well. So I am only speaking from my experiences with him. I am fortunate enough to have many hours of video from the 1985 - 1986 era when Edgar was still in the philippines. Among it I have Alot of footage of Edgar sparring with "Topher" Ricketts and Jun Pueblos among others, and comparing that to me sparring with him numerous times during my 5 years of private training with him I have to say that his movement has always been consistent. If anything he simplified his approach and fine tuned his stealth always using instinct and intuition as his guide.

    >>> Did PG Sulite teach anywhere else before arriving in USA?<<<

    Yes, other than teaching in Manila right before his departure for the states he also taught in Australia. Along with other Bakbakan Instructors and proteges of "Tatang" Illustrisimo.

    >>>The reason why I asked is because somebody mentioned to me that PG Sulite's techniques and movements had changed considerably after he went to USA. Therefore, his final development may not be very much Cabalerro?<<<

    Actually the core of Lameco Eskrima always has been, is and always will be De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal. Manong Caballero was detrimental in the development of Lameco Eskrima and his combative knowledge and aggressive mindset paved the most basic fundamental foundation of Lameco Eskrima. Edgar always told me that De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal was his confidense system concerning stick fighting and he would always utilize it to stop any threats faced to his person. As well he felt the same about Kali Illustrisimo concerning bladed combat.

    If there was any change noted it would only be due to Edgar revealing more of Manong Caballeros combat proven principles and concepts into mainstream Lameco Eskrima, not less. The guys who trained Lameco Eskrima in the philippines noticed a strong Illustrisimo influence in the development of the system whereas we in the United States noticed a strong influence of De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal, especially towards the end of PG Sulites time with us here before passing away.

    In Lameco Eskrima we have a saying "less is more". The less distance traversed the less distance required in recovering centerline infractions. The more distance traversed the more distance required in recovering centerline once violated. Everything in Lameco Eskrima is based on this principle of lees becoming more; a basic technique is a sound principle effective in combat.

    An advanced technique is that same basic technique but only reduced to simplicity, less risk equating to more gain. If you can move smaller and in the process still explode on impact you will have less distance to move in recovering centerline infractions and with it any vulnerabilities exposed to your opponent at the time the center line was violated. Lameco Eskrima is no more than the laws of physics working in unison with simple geometry holding in check the shortest route from the point of perception to the point of contact with simplicity and combative effect leading the way.

    In the final analysis only abilities matter; the most important question that we can ask of combative truth is can we kill our opponent? or will our opponent kill us? For at this time nothing else will matter... When you train as if your life matters, you will fight as if it does as well. Ciao.

    Guro Dave Gould
  12. Guro Dave Gould


    Now to address the original line of questioning concerning this thread. The question was:

    >>> please can anyone inform to me the weapons used in the Lameco system and the progression that one is taught from say single stick to bolo.Also,how much of a influence has the Pikiti Tirsia system had on the Lameco knife drills and application's. <<<

    Our weapon and weapon combinations in Lameco Eskrima are as follows:

    a)- garote b)- doble-garote c)- dos manos largo d)- baraw e)- doble baraw f)- batangas g)- itak h)- itak-at-baraw i)- buto-buto j)- sandatas ng pagkakataon (susi, bato, payong, panyo, boteyla, patalim).

    Lameco Eskrima is a fighting system which can be translated and effectively used through any medium which can be placed in the human hand. The only difference found will be in the delivery of the technique, concept or principle emphasized solely by the nomenclature of the weapon used. For example with garote (stick) you would still use a number "1" strike but more distance would be required to be traversed so that enough momentum could be generated on impact as to be able to break the head of your opponent. Whereas the same number "1" strike delivered with an itak (sword) or baraw (knife) would require less distance traversed because being an edged weapon momentum can be substituted with the cutting edge of the blade resulting in the same effect.

    An edged weapon does not require as much distance to be traversed in order to be effective because of its combative capability, whereas a stick does. Depending on each weapon or weapon combination utilized inherently dictates a different recovery measure, the more distance traversed the more distance required to recover centerline infractions. The less distance traversed the less distance required to recover centerline once violated. So with an edged weapon economy of motion can be used to govern cause and effect. Whereas more distance is nessitated and required concerning both delivery and recovery for an impact weapon if the same outcome is sought.

    In Lameco Eskrima Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite always emphasized abilities over technical knowledge in and of itself. So much time was dedicated in the development of the delivery system or simply called combative movement by Edgar. If the delivery system is well enough developed you can take any technique, concept or principle and perform it with positive effect. But with out the ability to deliver the technique, concept or principle effectively these things are only as good as their effect, because if you can not deliver their deadly intent on impact when fleeting opportunity is presented they quickly become useless and simultaneously become a liability to self in revealing opportunity to your opponent once attempted as vulnerabilities readily exist if recovery measures (centerline) can not be achieved quickly.

    Kali Pekiti-Tirsia did have an influence on the development of Lameco Eskrima but concerning blade combatives Kali Illustrisimo enhanced by Manong Caballeros aggressive mindset sets the combative standard. Punong Guro Sulite valued all of his Teachers and their influence in lameco is clearly evident of that but experience has always been allowed to establish and over rule technical effect and how, when and where any technique, concept or principle would be used in a realistic training environment.

    An environment where we are held accountable for our actions or failure to act as our training partners are always charged with the task to capilalize on any weakness perceived in training in an effort to keep us alert to the unlimited counter capability of our opponent when we least expect it. So even as we attack we still remain aware of any opportunity left or exposed to our opponent as a direct result of that action at any time that we are found in range or just out side of hitting range.

    In Lameco Eskrima it is not so much "who" you are or "what" you know as much as it is "how" you move which matters most. Allow your abilities to speak for you in your time of need and their will be little room for words. Because in combat either you will kill your opponent or he will kill you. How you train will determine which reality that you will realize and whether you will survive and live... or be left dead. You are your first and last line of defense and if you can not keep your opponent from kiling you no one else will. So train to prepare for that reality and train as if it matters, because one day it very well may.

    Train well, ciao.

    Guro Dave Gould
  13. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    Wow, great info!
    I'd like to say that the fact that in Lameco abilities are emphasized over techniques is exactly what attracted me to this methodology in the first place. It just sits well with my view of how combat should be treated, i.e.e the training for combat - develop your attributes and then learn to adapt to the ever changing situation, thus solving the problams at hand as they come.
  14. Tim Waid

    Tim Waid -== Banned ==-

    Pekiti-Tirsia and Lameco

    Some facts for consideration:

    The Balisong book that PG Sulite wrote is 95% Pekiti-Tirsia material. This includes the footwork, attacks, knife to knife, empty-hands to knife, and "Commando" techniques. The Balisong manipulation techniques being basic to intermediate and common to all.

    Pekiti-Tirsia and Ilustrisimo knife systems are greatly different in both emphasis and training method.

    It is certain that PG emphasized different material (Caballero, Ilustrisimo, Pekiti, etc) in the training of different instructors.

    The origins are clear and respect always recognized. A more worthy discussion would be how PG Sulite synthesized Lameco into its own.

    Tim Waid
    Pekiti-Tirsia Kali
  15. Guro Dave Gould



    Hello there, I hope that all is well with you and that you are keeping challenged by your training. Thank you for taking the time to respond to this thread, I for one appreciate your input.

    Pekiti-tirsia is one of the five major influences of Lameco Eskrima and Punong Guro Sulite did draw from Tuhon Gajes wealth of knowledge in its regard. The batangas knife material (balisong) as you mentioned was from Tuhon Gaje and Pekiti-tirsia. So in the batangas curriculum there is quite a bit of influence from Tuhon Gaje.

    However, concerning the curriculum, more specifically with bladed weapons, Punong Guro Sulite drew heavily from Kali Illustrisimo. From "Tatang" he pieced together all of the major components which make an effective delivery system and basic foundation such as: ranging, non-telegraphic striking, recovery measures, perception and reaction, location and relocation principles, enganyos, counter to counter, manufacturing opportunity, hand evasions and the 4 primary attributes (Speed, timing, power, position).

    I have trained with Tuhon Gaje since the 80`s and yes he has these things in Kali Pekiti-Tirsia as well, but from Edgars own words he said concerning Impact weapons De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal was his core system and with bladed weapons it was Kali Illustrisimo. All of the influences of Lameco Eskrima were important to Edgar and all were detrimental to its initial beginning.

    For the record Edgar was very high up in the Kali Pekiti-Tirsia global organization before he left to form Lameco Eskrima. At one point he was second in the organization only to Tuhon Gaje himself and Edgar was his right hand man. As a matter of fact he was so close to Tuhon Gaje that when Edgar first started training under "Tatang" Illustrisimo the other senior students of that organization would refer to Edgar as "Little Gaje" as a nick-name because Edgar would spend so much time with him and he always spoke so well of Tuhon Gaje.

    Coming from numerous years of training in Kali Pekiti-Tirsia under Tuhon Gaje myself, it was very easy for me to see what was from Tuhon Gaje and what was not in our Lameco Eskrima Curriculum. Edgar was very fond of Tuhon Gaje and often said that he was the most complete teacher under whom he had the priviledge to train. Tuhon Gaje is one of the rare Masters who can perform all three of the necessary functions to be an all around teacher: someone who can present their curriculum in a manner where his students can understand, someone who has mastered his craft and not only is very knowledgeable but knows it back to back, and some one who can fight and apply what he teaches in actual combat.

    Some Instructors may only be good in technique and teaching but they can not fight. Some may be good teachers and know lots of techniques but they may not be able to present that material in a manner where the student fully understands the more combative principles and concepts of what was taught and perform them in a chaotic combative environment. Others may be good fighters but they can not teach you what works for them or more importantly why it works. Tuhon Gaje has the rare quality of being a Master in all three regards: He is a good Teacher, he draws from a spring well of combative knowledge and he his a very effective fighter.

    I as well as all of my Lameco Eskrima bretheren have the highest respect for all of the Masters whose systems and knowledge were instrumental in the inception of our system. Lameco Eskrima is a system based on their collective knowledge and Edgar has always given them credit for that and acknowledgement for their detrimental influence.

    Again thanks for the response Tim, I hope that you will stick around post on other topics in the Lameco section of this forum as well. Go well, ciao.

    Guro Dave Gould
  16. Gilla

    Gilla -== Banned ==-

    Maybe we should have a battle of the Network Heirs,Chris Sayoc ,Nene Tortal and PG Edgar like americas top model . We could all vote on line. There could be a talent show - a bikini contest it would be Great.
  17. Guro Dave Gould


    What are you implying Gilla?
  18. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    There's a lot of great information in this thread. I've been in the FMA long enough to not be surprised by the fact that some of it is contradictory!
  19. Guro Dave Gould


    Maybe this is not the forum for me??? I am here to share my personal experiences as a long time private student of Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite and Lameco Eskrima. Politics serve no purpose but to create friction where it does not belong. Good luck in your training guys.

    For those who are genuinely interested in learning more about Lameco Eskrima please feel free to visit my website at: www.LamecoEskrima.org or you can visit my Lameco S.O.G. brothers at www.mandirigma.org

    I can guarantee that no politics or trolls will be tolerated on either of these sites, just good training advice for those interested in getting to know more about Lameco Eskrima. Go well guys, ciao.

    Guro Dave Gould.
  20. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Your experience is very much appreciated, and we hope you'll keep sharing it. Trolls won't be tolerated here; please PM the staff with any complaints. At this point, as someone not knowledgeable aout the art in question, I see only an attempt at humor and not a case of trolling.

    -FMAT Admin

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