Way of the Coward

Discussion in 'General' started by franci1911, Apr 13, 2008.

  1. franci1911

    franci1911 Member

    This will be my absolute last post on this so called forum. I have been patient here for way to long.

    The reason GrandTuhon Gaje and the Pekiti Tirsia Site has been removed was simply that Tim Hartman views us as a threat to his exsistance. I state this simply because if you look at the reason Tim banned GrandTuhon Gaje. In Tims words he challenged Nene through Tim Waid and Michael Franciotti. I am here to tell you that this is hogwash and totally untrue. What GrandTuhon was simply saying is that you can take Tim Waid and Michael Franciotti with there knowledge and I challenge you or anyone to take a blade away from them if you hand no weapon yourself. It is virtually if not totally impossibe. Unless of course you have an equalizer (another weapon of equal or higher threat). But as usual and typically you all here on FMATalk including the moderators (all) have very limited knowledge and ability to understand that. Not to mention the fact that all the moderators have a connection with Dekiki Tirsia.

    For Tim Hartman that fact that we can show that disarming or blocking cannot work would simply raise doubt on his ability as an FMA instructor. And while I am on the subject of Tim Hartman, (Datu) what's that all about? Datu is a title used by Royal tribal Chieftains. Not to mention that it is a Malay/Muslim term.

    So Tim Hartman my question to you is, What Tribe are you a Chieftain of?

    As for anyone here that uses Arnis, Arnis De Mano, Armos De Mano, or Escrima/Eskrima as part of what you are studying. This is including you Arnisador. Do more research please! Realize that the Martial Arts here exsisted for many centuries prior to the Spanish Influence. Using those terms should embarrase any Pilipino individual or practitioner period. It would imply that there was no fighting system within these islands until the Spanish came to these islands.

    As far as the Battle Between Pekiti Tirsia and Dekiti Tirsia. First one should understand that Dekiti Tirsia was not and has never been the family system. Nene was never trained by his father Balbino due to his untimely death. And He (Nene) as well as his older brother had no interest in training with GrandTuhon Conrado Tortal. Any statement that says that Dekiti Tirsia was Formalized in the mid 1800's is just pure lies. Now lets briefly talk about the lies. This name of Dekiti Tirsia was contrived by Greg Alland and Nene Tortal back in the mid of 1996.

    Greg Alland if you had any courage at all you would come on here and tell the truth yourself.

    Back then Nene slipped in a certificate that gave Greg Alland title of master. This was done without GrandTuhon Gajes' knowledge. Then he charged Greg Alland $5,000 for this certificate. I could detail this further.
    So Nene has lied, he has cheated and has stolen. In the name of Greed.

    Recently the Sayocs' have made similiar challenges to GrandTuhon and Pekiti Tirsia. Now for the Sayocs' there would never be Pilipino Martial Arts for them if it were not for GrandTuhon Gaje. Years ago and I remember because I was there. Where were you? The Sayoc family was teaching Tae Kwon Do. Why would someone who had a family system of fighting teach Tae Kwon Do. So what you like that is utter nonsense. They had no formal training in FMA and absolutely NO Family system. That is totally contrived and an absolute lie.

    As far as Edgar Sulite. Why get so upset to have a complete knowledge of the man that you base your whole exsistance to. If anyone can talk about or know about Edgar Sulite it would be GrandTuhon himself. He gave him his foundation as well the name Lameco came from GrandTuhon. He told Edgar how to go out and put his system together. Who to contact and train under. GrandTuhon knew how Edgar Sulite treated these people as well. Why do you have to fear about the truth? It would make you stronger to have this knowledge.

    Finally to everyone on this forum. Understand this GrandTuhon owes to no one. He often speaks in poetic license so that you work at understanding yourself. In this way you learn how to teach. Which teaches you how to learn. If he just gave you the answers you are not learning nor are you expanding your knoweldge in the Filipino Martial Arts.

    Filipino Martial Arts is not a cookie cutter approach to fighting. It is a blade oriented fighting system that goes back well before the spanish influence. Any mix of other martial arts simply makes what you have moot and incomplete. If you use blocks you get cut. If you disarm without an equalizer you get cut. Getting cut is equivelant to loosing your life.

    So continue your path. Make your money! Decieve the public! Make it all about money not about what will save someones life!

    This is dedicated to all the Tim Hartmans', Cris Sayocs' and anyone else who is all about the money.

    Now you can ban me happpily I go on my own terms.

    michael franciotti
    Bacolod City Philippines
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2008
  2. sparrow

    sparrow New Member

    Using those terms does not imply at all what you are suggesting. You could as well say using the word filipino to name inhabitants of the Philippines imply nobody llived on the Philippines before the spaniards arrived....
    As for the word Kali don't try to fool anybody we know who is behind this word :)...one guy who studied indonesian silat and is also said to have studied Doce Pares and San Miguel escrima but yet claims to teach pure undiluted filipino martial arts...

    As for me I am a proud practitioner of Filipino Chinese martial arts. For your culture chinese were in the Philippines prior to the spaniards and also influenced what is now called filipino martial arts.
  3. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    Actually, I believe that the word kali was used before, in the context of signifying the martial arts of the Philippines. Namely, it seems that it also appears in Placido Yambao's book, which was published in 1957, but it also does not offer any solid proof that it had been the actual name of those martial arts, prior to the arrival of the Spanish.

    Personally, I have no problem with anybody using kali as the name of their system, but I also do not believe that this is/was the name of the ancient precursor to what is now known as arnis or eskrima.

    To Mr. Franciotti (if he should ever at least read the forums ever again), how come you're so disagreeing with the fact that late PG Sulite's students are defending his name from GT Gaje's attacks? As far as I remember, nobody here has ever written anything even remotely similar about mr. Gaje, yet all you Pekiti people have been jumping to his defense on more than one occasion, even at the simple criticism of any sort. Is it to say that somehow the Grand Tuhon is deserving the support of his followers, while PG Sulite is not?

    Please, do not get me wrong, I would be the first to jump at the opportunity to learn from GT Gaje, or any of you people from PTK, but the whole clan does remind a little bit of a cult, from time to time. I mean, it seems that whatever GT Gaje says, stands as an absolute law among his disciples, without any possibility of being questioned or disputed. For example, I was often wondering, how come that he (Mr. Gaje) often says that his art is pure without Spanish influence, yet some of his methods are termed contradas and re-contradas... What, tell me that those are indigenous tribal Illongo words?

    At the end, I do not think that Mr. Hartman did the right thing when he shut down the PTK section of the forum. I also do not think that GT Gaje brought any particular trouble. After all, he never posted anywhere except the PTK section, so if someone does not like what he has to say - don't go read it!

    Best luck to all you people out there.
  4. Guro Dave Gould



    You don`t know **** about Lameco Eskrima!!! Or Edgar Sulite!!! you are only parrotting what someone else has said concerning him to further that very selfish persons agenda. I judge people by their actions and all of the years that I knew and trained under Edgar Sulite he never insulted his elders or anyone else as you people do in Pekiti-Tirsia. can I say the same for Tuhon Leo T. Gaje jr.? Absolutely not!

    You want to talk about truths lets discuss P. Greg Alland, I was in the Philippines when he was given his Masters certificate. I was at the ceremony where Tuhon Leo T. Gaje jr. SIGNED and PRESENTED it to Greg, as a matter of fact he was introducing Greg as Master P. Greg Alland for the whole two weeks that we were training with Tuhon "Nene" Tortal and Tuhon Leo t. Gaje jr. I WAS THERE! WHERE WERE YOU? If you don`t believe me ask Tom Sotis he was there as well. If you don`t want to take our word for it how about seeing it for yourself, the whole thing is on video tape. Lies! Deception! Mistrust! Who is fooling who?

    In addition Tuhon Leo T. Gaje jr. was praising "Nene" as an all knowing Grand Master of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia throughout the whole training camp in 1996 at Mambukal in Negros. My question to you Mr. "I know everything" and "I have been everywhere Franciotti" based on the allegations thrust upon "Nene" in recent years am I to believe that Tuhon Leo T. Gaje jr. was lying to us in 1996 when he spoke well of the skill of "Nene"? Or am I to believe that Tuhon Leo T. Gaje jr. is lying now when he says that 'Nene" has no skill? Which is it? Am I to believe Tuhon Leo T. Gaje jr. in 1996 when he issued P. Greg Alland his Masters certificate and consistently addressed him as Master Greg Alland? Or Am I to believe Tuhon Leo T. Gaje now in saying that he is not? Again I ask you which is it?

    People wonder why I do not associate my past with Kali Pekiti-Tirsia anymore? all that they need do is read the lies and filth that this group is flailing on everyone else and you need not wonder. It is a shame because Tuhon Leo has great knowledge and skill and he would be ideal to train under if only his false accusations and slander of others did not get in the way.

    Kali Pekiti-Tirsia as the only true Indigenous Pilipino Warrior Art? Please!!! If it were the only pure Pilipino Warrior Art it would have been founded in 1497 shortly before the Spanish arrived in 1521 and not 1897 only one year before the Spanish were defeated (1898) by the United States in the Spanish American War, thereby relinquishing the Philippines from the grip of Spain along with Puerto Rico and Guam.

    Mr. Franciotti don`t speak on matters that you know absolutely nothing about. Leave Edgar Sulite and Lameco Eskrima out of your selfish political debates to further your own agenda!!!


    Guro Dave Gould.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2008
  5. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Darth Vindicatus Supporting Member

    I do? Wow. I did not know that. I must have been sleep studying it or something, considering that I've never taken a single lesson in it knowingly. Since you "know this" could you please clarify it? I'd really like to know where my so called connection is.

    Try this link http://www.martialtalk.net/wiki/index.php/Datu
    You might learn something.

    As to the banning's, let me simply say that if this was my site, people would have been booted along time ago. Some people are incapable of behaving like -guests- when visiting another mans place. So, when people go looking for another home to hurl threats, lies, and insults, please do NOT sign up at any of my sites. I don't want you and your angst there.
  6. The Game

    The Game Pain

    Bye Mikey! Don't you have to go play warrior in the barbaric jungles of the PI? That lawless place where might makes right, and only the law of the blade and gun rule?

    I can't say I'll miss you, or your liar of a GM. Some of us remember the lies he's said in the past and don't give much credibility to his speaking true now.


    I know, I know. You want to meet me alone in a back alley with no witnesses and you'll show me the length of your blade. I hate to dsappoint, but I just don't swing that way Mikey, and I'm not interested in the length of your blade there Zorro. Some of us prefer tolive in the modern age, where law and civilization exist, and not the caveman age where the biggest club rules.

    So, I won't miss you, I won't miss your cult leader Leo, and I certainly won't miss all the pissing and moaning. So, from the heart, I say "Vaffanculo che cazzo". :upyours:
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2008
  7. Fan the Madman

    Fan the Madman Circles with Knives

    I have to say... if this latest outburst is what we should consider to be
    the new "rule" for "kali" players... I think perhaps I need to keep reference
    to "kali" to my marketing and train all my students to call the art "arnis or

    Fortunately I am proud to say that I do Largo Mano Arnis... and we
    fight using "the way of the coward". We kill you while we run away :)

    Mr. Hartman should be proud to be referred to as a "coward" in
    Filipino Martial Arts. The "way of the coward" is a humble yet
    deadly one.

    "Please no sir.. I have no need to fight you.. I only wish to take
    these supplies home to my " THRUST " family... excuse me"
    Goes away as the dung-encrusted sepsis-causing pointy stick
    juts out of the robbers stomach......

    Only one who fears his ability to defend needs to attack
    all the time.

    And a system that "does not defend, we attack the attack"...
    well.... by their fruits shall ye know them.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2008
  8. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Remy Presas taught physical education at the University of Negros Occidental-Recoletos and later was a senior Phil. govt. official in the area of physical education, charged with spreading the teaching of native FMAs in the schools.

    I'll be frank. It never would have occurred to me to question his judgment in choosing to call his system Modern Arnis, or in giving out titles like (Punong) Guro or Datu. I know some people find the use of Datu in this context offensive and I respect their feelings, but Prof. Presas' system is hardly the only one to use it in that way.
  9. pguinto

    pguinto New Member

    i really like the part when franci911 says, "...the Martial Arts here exsisted for many centuries prior to the Spanish Influence..." especially when he hails from San Jose, California. Do you think he was referring to the Aztecs, the Incas, or the Mayans?
  10. tellner

    tellner New Member

    This is exactly the sort of stupid personal politics that gives martial arts a bad name when it gets out into public.

    If the ones yelling loudest about stabbing and clubbing people wanted to zip each other they would have done it years ago. If they were serious about it they would have settled it without telling the world. And if they were really serious they wouldn't say anything to anyone. People would just show up with their throats cut, probably from behind.

    Some of the people want to posture and woof. Others feel they have to lend a hand because people they support or admire are involved. The first sort are just wasting everyone else's time. The second kind? Folks I feel really for you. You know it's a bad idea, but it's just something you have to do for people you care about. All the choices plain suck.

    Before anyone else says it, yeah. I carried water in a bunch of these hose outs over the years. Eventually I woke up and realized that it is was time I could have spent washing dishes, petting the dog and building a shed. It all would have come out the same except I would have had a clean kitchen, a happy dog, lower blood pressure and a place to smoke my pipe and make furniture.

    Do what you have to, guys. You're not going to change any minds. And anyone who doesn't already have a horse in the race is just going to shake his head and write it all off as "Crazy martial artists. Stay away." It won't help your cause. It won't help your martial arts. And it won't do anything good for anyone's reputation.
  11. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Fairy Tales can come true, it can happen to you
    If youre young at heart
    For its hard, you will find, to be narrow of mind
    If youre young at heart

    You can go to extremes with impossible schemes
    You can laugh when your dreams fall apart at the seams
    And life gets more exciting with each passing day
    And love is either in your heart or on its way

    Dont you know that its worth every treasure on earth
    To be young at heart
    For as rich as you are its much better by far
    To be young at heart

    And if you should survive to 105
    Look at all youll derive out of being alive
    Then here is the best part
    You have a head start
    If you are among the very young at heart

    And if you should survive to 105
    Look at all youll derive out of being alive
    Then here is the best part
    You have a head start
    If you are among the very young at heart
  12. jonhy

    jonhy New Member


    i may be new to the art(barely 2 years). but i've been a filipino all my life(though not that long yet...i'm in my twenties), and this is exactly the mentality that makes me somewhat ashamed of my heritage.. [sigh]..
  13. Guro Dave Gould


    Hi Guys,

    I just wanted to say that I agree with everyones sentiments here about the ongoing political environment which acts as a wedge between the two Tuhons of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia.

    It is unfortunate that all of this had to come to a head here on a public forum. When one person reacts and makes negative comments about someone elses teacher it can only provoke a negative response from students that think highly of those teachers and people such as myself will come forward and defend the honor and reputation of those whom we are loyal to.

    In my case that is Edgar Sulite, others on the forum will come to the defense of Jerson "Nene" Tortal, and Gilla, Michael Franciotti and others will come to the defense of Tuhon Leo T. Gaje jr. I understand all of this which is why I always try and avoid political topics to begin with especially topics that run as passionate as the Kali Pekiti-Tirsia / Dekiti-Tirsia debate. I, like most feel that this topic should be handled between the two parties involved on a personal level and dealt with in private rather than in public.

    I wrote an e-mail to Mr. Franciotti to get to the heart of the matter and he responded saying that he and Tuhon Gaje had no ill will or intent in blemishing the Image of Lameco Eskrima or Edgar Sulite which I am glad to hear. As for Michael Franciotti he is defending the reputation of Tuhon Leo T.Gaje jr. Understandably he feels toward his teacher Tuhon Leo t. Gaje jr. the same as I feel toward Edgar Sulite. In like manner the people in the Dekiti-Tirsia camp feel the same way about Tuhon Jerson "Nene" Tortal. So when allegations start to fly in all directions you can see that communications can get heated quickly and one thing will lead to another as there will be misunderstandings.

    When a topic of conversation is so strongly politically motivated it will force all involved to come out swinging in defense of those that we think dearly of. I strongly feel that had this been kept private in the first place it probably would have been resolved already, but since every post and response adds to the chaos of the situation creating more and more confusion and mistrust amongst those involved, eventually as a direct result of that action people will strike out of frustration saying tings that may be taken out of context And this is how we arrive where we are now, at an impass so to speak.

    I think that Tuhon Gaje should have a voice on FMA talk as he is a highly recognized Grand Master in the Pilipino Warrior Arts and has much experience to share with us all. As I have always stated I respect him immensely as he was one of my first Instructors in the Pilipino Warrior Arts but the politics that follow him is often times overbearing and the weight of such heavy political fallout collapses many loyalties toward him or others when forced to choose sides.

    Again I understand everyones frustrations here, but I feel that currently we as senior members of our community are spreading the wrong message here to the younger members amongst us. They should be proud to be a part of our community but if we can not coexist and recognize each others right to exist for the better good of what we represent we will chase the younger members off to other diciplines which will be bad for all of us and disrespectful to those that died so that these Warrior Arts could be passed from generation to generation.

    We should lead by example and pass along our strengths to the ones following the path behind us and none of our weakneses, but when forced to react we show glimpses of our Human side and the primal reactions are sure to come fast and hard which can only complicate things instead of helping. When fealt threatened the primal instinct is the first to get released and this will provoke a strong response which will provoke a stronger response and eventually escalate things to a more physical level.

    In Like manner Tuhon Gaje needs to recognize other Pilipino Warrior Arts right to exist. I hope that in a matter of weeks Tuhon Gaje and the PTK forum will be back up and operating and we can all get back to utilizing the forum for what it was formatted for to begin with, as a medium for communications where we can see the similarities of what we all do and engage in honest and helpful communication regarding the Indigenous Warrior Arts of the Philippines which we all serve collectively.

    This will be my last post concerning this topic of discussion and I hope that others will follow my lead and allow these two Tuhons to sort out their differences in private and far away from public forums.


    Guro Dave Gould.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2008
  14. Nakiko

    Nakiko New Member

    What happened to the good old days where things would have been settled face to face, and once and for all. I have no affiliation to any of these groups being discussed, attacked, or defended. I do however know as I was taught, that words can never be retracted, and words have a mana, a force in and of itself, so becareful of the words we speak for it is a reflection of those that have come before us and can pave a path that lays ahead... Maybe if those involved are not willing to "play" to back thier words, than maybe those words should never have been spoken.... Just my humble thoughts...
  15. Kailat


    Well, to tell you the truth! This is why I have not ever joined any specific side or joined any association other than my very own teachers!! (Bruce Ogle's Indiana Kali Association)... I personally am just so disapointed with this whole thing, that in truth it has just turned me completly away from martial arts in whole. My students, my friends, and many others I know personally read these forums!! And albeit the truth maybe that Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje Jr. may be guilty for all he has said, and done! But it has shed such a "HORRIBLE" light on my training and my students desire to want to continue training!! This has hurt the future for martial arts for sure!!

    With Tim Waid coming to INDPLS I know now that 3 of my students who were planning on attending this event has backed out as of yesterday!!! And I cannot blame them... I will be out of state training & Instructing w/ Homeland Security anyway and was not going to be able to make it anyhow...

    I hope this gets resolved and we as martial artist can move past all this.

    It's really appauling in my opinion and has left a pretty poor distaste in my mouth of FMA...
  16. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    Pekiti and Dekiti do not represent the whole FMA, just their own family system. And even if they want to and wipe each other out of the FMA map, FMA will continue to thrive, maybe even more, although maybe not as exciting. To those who who have the insatiable appetite for these sorts of things, worry not because its not the end. Quite a few imaginative guys can come up with ancient martial arts in a few months. Like it or not, all of the people you adore or hate in FMA will be here forever. They may look and talk in never ending loops along the way and maybe even change names but they will be here.
  17. PeteNerd

    PeteNerd Member

    That's too bad. They will be missing a great opportunity. Tim is one of the most skilled martial artists I have ever seen and he is very good at teaching to all levels.

  18. Kailat


    That's too bad. They will be missing a great opportunity. Tim is one of the most skilled martial artists I have ever seen and he is very good at teaching to all levels.


    This may be so, and with all do respect to Maginoo Tim, I'm not taking any hard earned reputation he may have earned away from him. This is and was their own decision based on the ongoings of these forums and the outcome from all the hoopla... I stand behind them as they are my students, however the decisions they made were made on their own free will due to the lack of respect... I have always told them that I personally would not be a follower of any one particular group of Pekiti Tirsia, Dekiti Tirsia, Sayoc, Ateinza, Inosanto, Presas, Edgar Sulite, etc....I have seen this sort of thing go on and on for many years with teachers and instructors having falling out's over some TIFT or TAFT and I refused to be put in that category. For martial arts for the majority of Everyone it's a hobby, not a way of living...Although, that a small % of us (myself included) rely on training for survival within our careers!

    I'm hoping this will not disrupt the balance of any one else, and maybe it won't.

    I do understand the ongoing family argument between GT Nene Tortal and GT Leo Gaje Jr. this is something i've just learned to over look. I just can't understand why others need to continue to put forth a remark, or an opinion if it does not concern them? Let the two specifics involved handle it! True it should of never been brought forth on open public forums and for that both need to set back and realize that because of that decision it may have hurt them and the future of FMA (PTK-DTK) forever!!

    I will continue to go on about my training as I have in the past, and that may or may not include either group! However, I cannot make that same choice for my students and others that I speak to outside of my circle. I just wish this would be resolved for the fact that It's better to have both groups combine forces and create a greater power and greater source of training to offer the world rather then create even more disdain, havoc, and negative reinforcement that this world is already bombarded with..

    and happy training!!

  19. mikesf

    mikesf New Member

    So by that rational are you no longer going to train with Bruce Ogle? (or do you still?)

    Where do you think he learned PTK? From Grand Tuhon Gaje..

  20. rshawtx

    rshawtx New Member

    Just going off of what Jonhy said, welcome to the dark underbelly of family feuding-Philippine style. Can you imagine what thanksgiving must be like? Levity aside, feelings get hurt and remembered for a very LOOOONG time in the PI. Unfortunately, the rest of the family has to deal with the awkwardness and hostility. Not taking any sides here, just stating a fact of family dynamics. In the end of it, we've lost the input of Grand Tuhon Gaje from the boards which is lamentable.

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