Tumbada what does it mean ?

Discussion in 'Kali Ilustrisimo' started by Black Grass, Sep 28, 2007.

  1. Black Grass

    Black Grass Junior Member

    Hi all i was just wondering if any of the Ilustrisimo players who speak Spanish or Tagalog know what the literal translation of tumbada is. Master Tups told me it means to 'push the hand' which describes the technique but what is the literal translation?

  2. Carol

    Carol <font color = blue><b>Technical Administrator</b><

    I'm not an Ilustrisumo player but I can help you with the translation. :)

    Tumbada directly translates to "knocked down".
  3. Black Grass

    Black Grass Junior Member

    Thx Carol,

    That totally makes sense. Is it spanish or tagalog ? Although, I am Filipino I don't speak Tagalog ( for the record my parents are cebuano) although I can get the gist of things when spoken spoken to in Tagalog.

    This reminds me of Sumbrada/Sombra people often think it means 'roof block' or if you are JKD player 'counter for counter' when it actually means shadow or shade.

  4. Carol

    Carol <font color = blue><b>Technical Administrator</b><

    Hi Vince,

    Unfortunately I don't speak Tagalog either :( but I do speak Spanish reasonably well. Its the adjective form of the verb tumbar.

    Dictionaries usually translate tumbar as "to fall". However, the Spanish have two verbs that mean "to fall" - caer and tumbar. The verb caer is closest to the English verb to fall...leaves fall, trip and fall.

    Tumbar however signifies a kind of falling that was caused by intent. Therefore, even though the dictionary says "to fall", the correct translation is "to knock down", and its adjective "knocked down".

    Same with Sumbrada. The most common definitions are "shadow" or "shade", but it also means "protection from the sun" (and therefore) "overhang" or "shelter". :)
  5. citom

    citom New Member

    I'm not from the Ilustrisimo camp either, but am a native Tagalog speaker. In Tagalog, "tumba" also means to fall over, to topple over, or to knock down. Eg. "Natumba si Jose sa suntok ni Gloria" = "Jose was knocked down by Gloria's punch"
    "Tumbada" however, is not found in Tagalog. My guess is that it comes from Spanish as Carol pointed out. A lot of terms in the Ilustrisimo come from Spanish (florete, fraile, doblete, etc).
  6. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    Carol got it!
  7. mike-a

    mike-a Kiwi stickbasher

    I would have thought it means "tumble" or "collapse", as we were taught the technique starts off like a crossada that doesn't work and then "tumbles" over to the other side so you can counter with a backhand.
  8. garrotista

    garrotista New Member

    In the Cebuano (Bisaya) dialect, tumba also translates to "[SIZE=-1]fall over, to topple over, or to knock down," just like Tagalog. The term tumbada, is also used by Teovel Balintawak players (from the Velez bro's lineage) to describe a block and/or strike technique.
  9. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    A few of us believe that a lot of the techniques found in KI were once generic to most Filipino escrimadors' arsenal.
  10. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I'm sure that could be said of many FMAs, right?
  11. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    What I see is many FMAs not so long ago do not have this or that technique or principles or mindset or what have you then for some reason or another, they have almost transform into a new system or style adopting and practicing new techniques and methods with precepts totally alien to the old masters yet maintain that its still the same style and system pure and undiluted.
    What now seems to be unique to the Ilustrisimos were once ordinary practices of many Filipino escrimadors.
  12. lveskrima

    lveskrima New Member

    FMAs are constantly evolving - this is what makes them better than 'traditional' martial artists

    IMO there are no such things as "new' techniques - just forgotten ones and ones practiced more often. Style is unique to the individual. The techniques, concepts and principles he chooses to practice most are what make up his style. This doesn't mean that the system that his teacher is showing him is not pure.

    Individual techniques are definitely not unique to the Ilustrisimo system. However, the execution of techniques and methods of training, and principles as a whole certainly make it unique. Tatang never really taught his style nor did he have a system. It was Master Diego and Master Ricketts who organized what they absorbed from Tatang into a system.
  13. Twist

    Twist Junior Member

    There certainly are several techniques in KI I've not seen anywhere else in the Philippines. Of course I've seen only about 30-40 styles, mostly in Visayas and Manila, but I've seen all the major ones and they differ a lot from Mang Tonys Kalis Ilustrisimo.

    So I've to agree with Raul, who of course also knows more about KI then me ;)
  14. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    "Better" in what way? Also, the art cannot be better than the artist whether he's traditional or whatnot.
    How can you forget something you have never learned?
    Unless this individual's unique style, techniques, concepts and principles vehemently oppose those of his teacher's or his teacher's art. It's more appropriate to give his style a new name and just acknowledge the arts and masters where and whom he learned from than profess to practice and teach a pure but improved style/system.
    Even with an hour of real training with the Kalis Ilustrisimo guys in Manila can easily change that notion.
    As in never?! Is it possible to formally teach an art as vast and intricate as Ilustrisimo without a system?
    All of tatang's students organize what they absorbed from his teachings into their own system. The difference is how much one tries not to add and adopt anything from outside source.
    As tatang said, "Don't try to be like me, try to be you."
  15. CincoTeros

    CincoTeros New Member

    From what I heard, Tatang did not really teach. Instead Tatang would show a technique and it's up to the student to understand what he did.
  16. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    As the saying goes "believe only half of what you see, and nothing that you hear." Mostracion is just the beginning, it doesn't end there. You can't learn or understand Ilustrisimo by just watching, if that's possible then most of those including friends and FMAers who regularly watch and visits the Ilustrisimos will be able to play or do Ilustrisimo by now. And also, tatang rarely showed any technique to anyone. Because he seldom explained (to just anyone)what he did , its a common notion that he simply intercepts, hit the arm, face or body and that was all. There's much more to Ilustrisimo than meets the eye.
  17. eome

    eome Junior Member

    Well said.
  18. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote New Member

    observation & practice

    Just a side point in this discussion; anyone who has tried to teach someone anything will know that ability to actually observe someone and reproduce what was observed accurately with thier own bodies is rare and highly desirable. I think it might have been Yang Luchan that said that observation in training is more important than practice. Practice in turn is more important than theory.
  19. CincoTeros

    CincoTeros New Member

    I take it you are an illustrisimo player in Manila (which is very cool btw--wish I could be there studying fma). If you don't mind me asking--are you with Yuli Romo, Tony Diego, Romy Mapacagal, Topher Ricketts?
  20. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    I meet all of them when they find time to go to Luneta. I spend most of my time with Mang Tony and Mang Romy in Luneta, Binondo and Zabala.

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