The Title of Datu.

Discussion in 'General' started by ghuimo, Aug 5, 2006.

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  1. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    Thank you for your reply.

    As to racism, I have faced it my whole life. In a predominently White town I grew up as the "Wet-Back", "Half-Breed", "Sand-N...", "Camel-Jockey", and many others. I grew up thinking a fair fight was four of them and one of me.

    So, if I or anyone else was able to train any time I want, such as in the car, or at work at their desk, or while walking to a vehicle or in a garage, or, ..., . My point is that you are discriminating without knowing. You are judging without knowing. And you take offense at me for replying in kind.

    To answer your questions, I am fine and have no problems with this, but will call you and others, on this issue. And yes there is discrimination amongst Asia and also with in other sub-cultures. It is nto always caucasion on the rest of the world. Asian can be racist against other asians, or Pacific Islanders for having even darker or lighter skins. Or not .... (* Pick some other thing to discriminate by *)

    So while we agree that Racism is bad. I still see an issue that you still think you are free to make comments that insult others and other cultures. Fine. You think I am red in the face, and being part American Indian I will let that slide as a non-racist comment, I will just ignore you and your comments. You say I do not understand, that is fine for your opinion. I say you do not understand that others in any culture can learn the surivial mechanisms that are required to be able to execute certain techniques. Yet, I am the one whi is all wrong here.

    It is just a little frustrating to see almsot everytime some one in the PI who gets an internet conenction and then makes these comments that no one else will understand the TRUE FMA. No one else will be able to learn it, and all the best the only good training is in the PI. You can take it for what it is worth, but I still find your comments offensive and insulting to any non-native to the PI. But, as all others are willing to just to continue to swallow your words and continue with implied discrimination, I will let it lie and stop.

    You win, I was wrong.

    My apologies.
  2. langgaw

    langgaw New Member


    You still dont get it do you and you are still at it but that is a mark of a good warrior.we will just both ignore the matter because it is getting us nowhere. .Apologies accepted............another trait of a good arnisador is having no problem apologizing. By the way do you know that some of the great known knife fighters are of American Indian descent?

    Rich, what are your thoughts about about mixing Kung Fu with the sayaw of arnis. We have tried it and though a bit awkward, it is very much feasible. What do you think?

  3. langgaw

    langgaw New Member

    my other two cents.........
    FMA practitioners who learn the art in the place of origin would certainly learn a little bit more than those learning from here for obvious resasons. Also take note that the techniques usually taught abroad are done by numbers, drills and finite moves. It is always argued that the stick can only come from finite number of angles. TRaditional arnis proves this thinking wrong. That is where the natives excel....for info purposes.

  4. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    That's not at all obvious to me, and indeed I do take some offense at it--not just for myself but on behalf of my and others' teachers! I do not think that the native Filipino teachers I and others have had and seen here are "holding back" on us Americans!

    Dan Inosanto, Remy Presas, Ted Buot, Ray Dionaldo, etc., etc., etc., all teach here in the States. How much better can it be there?
  5. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    Take offense to what? There is no need to get upset. I am as American as any of you. And I do see some of the differences in the way they think and train back home. Maybe you need to better understand the culture and/or how the art is still preserved back in the the PI. FMA has always been family or tribal in some ways. Therefore, there is always a sense of closeness, closed door and secrecy. It is not about secret techniques but did you ever think that it is up to the instructors discretion to teach what and how he wants. There good be a number of reason why it is taught differently or with limitations. Character and trust is one thing. Sometimes an instructor needs to take on a student from elsewhere because it is his livelihood and need the money. Does he give the art away for one bulk sum? NO, he establishes a relationship, gains the trust and tests the character. This is essential for anyone teaching. Now, there are others who choose not to teach on a broader spectrum or maybe to foreigners but that is his choosing. I don't see it as form of racism. And if you believe this does not happen in every art in it's homeland, you need to research further.

    Remy and Ted are probably the only good examples cause they saw Balintawak from the old days in Cebu. Dan and Ray developed their knowledge and skill here. It is just taught differently, not better just different. In fact, most do not have all the drills and formal curriculums that we are accustomed to here. And basics alone may take up a good part of the beginning years or be all you need. There is no such thing as "advanced" techniques. Advanced is being able to use you basics againt anything at anytime. I believe this was the point langgaw was trying to share.
  6. Rocky

    Rocky New Member

    There are many other's who train old style here in the U.S. Leo Gaji is here, the lastra Brothers, Gm Abon, GM Toabada ect ect.... However many of the old timers that are here do tend to mellow things abit here in the U.S but that also depends on the student, if you puch and train hard and show your worthyness you get more......I use pit Gm Presas against GM Gaji all the time when I was younger, Remy would show me something, then a few weks later I would learn a Pekit Technique to counter Remys tech, then I would go back to Remy and show him his technique was countered by one of Leo's....which used to get Remy's blood up, so Remy would teach me something else, And because I wasn't affraid to fight he taught me in a traditional way much more combative, and beleive me much more painful, his Balintawak is very powerfull and direct, however his was designed to fight against other Balintawak poeple....So when I started training with GM Buot in 1982 I would pit his and Remy's skills against each other, I would tell GM Buot that Remy said to counter something GM Buot taought me like this....then GM Buot would show me a counter and I would go back and forth between them......

    So what I am getting at is the training here is just as good if you are willing to dig for it....

    and to the guy that said a 2yr student can rarely beat a 10yr student or something like that!!! Well that may be true in your camp but it ain't in my camp or many of my friends....Hell Tom Biso with just 3 years of training went to the Philipines and won grand champion in the senior masters division of a live stick very little pading tourniment back in 1979...

    in th the early 80's I fought and beat several senior instructors in Full contact. live stick, fencing mask only tournments......My friend Jim Birchfield did the same..... Of course these were not scor a point and quit tounments they were continuous action and much more painfull I can assure you, in fact we trained like that on almost a nightly basis back in the 80's ...I had a student Steve who was only training with us for about 8 months ad he cleaned house in our school and in fact broke two of my ribs fighting so ........I guess what i am saying is its all about the also keep in mind that just because a student beats a higer rank doesn't mean the student is better, the higher rank may still have lots to offer!!!!!!!! His or her fighting days may just be behind them!!!

  7. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

  8. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    Rocky, I am aware that there are some others but reflected only on the names that were mentioned. However, I would tend to believe that the training has evolved from the way it was done back home and for several reasons. Be it for a sense progress, formal curriculum, personal interpretation and development. Some practitioners would generally not find an appeal to the "old school" ways because to this day it remains rudimentary.

    As far as sudent diligence, is a fact that the harder you work physically and mentally, the more you can learn. However, many instructors cater teaching on a more personal one-to-one level and no matter how much diligence is shown that student will be guided in a different direction with different plans. Character and tust has so much to do with this. Citing examples of countering methods is a good point you raised cause the Manongs back home were big with that. To further ilustrate, some things were not shared due to the fact that they were devised as the counter techniques for the system itself.
  9. langgaw

    langgaw New Member

    I do not know what you are taking offense to but hear this, Filipino teachers do not hold back on the person worthy of it. (In case he passess on the art ). But all would think twice if there is a hint of queationable attitude in a student. As for the rest of the students there are variuos reasons to hold back...could be hard to teacwhich might end up hurting himself, might be an air of arrogance, might be handicapped, might be fishing only, might be hundreds of it.
    Mr Inosanto, Mr Presas and others are no doubt good teachers here in the US but personally it is better over there in the islands.Do not take offense on this...instead try and wonder.....could it be true or is langawtotally wrong?
    MR JohnJ said there is no advance technique. Many may have said this before but I bow to Mr JJ for hearing it from him the first time.This is very much 100% I agree. The techniques are right there in front of you and you just have to see it . If you go for what is taught to ONLY then you are stuck (by whoever big names you learned it from) A person can write a novel, abook, achapter, a paragraph, a sentence, a word....similarly. the leters make up all these. when you start using the letters where they make sense, then you advance and on and on... In arnis, The basics ar the letters and word and par..etc. ..and then you create a book. I can only explain this much..
    Mr Rocky has a good exoerience so that he can explain better the diference between then and now. The fight thingis have to adapt to the times and I am sure Mr Rocky wouls till prefer the previous fight system. I feel proud when I encounter people who were there because they feel something (at least to himself) special...topass on to their kids and friends. The 80,s tournament , please tell us more about it later. Enjoy the art.

  10. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I think this clears up the matter! I can easily imagine teaching styles being different in the Phil., and I understand the impact of having close familial or cultural ties encouraging an instructor to be more open (as we saw with Kung Fu in the Chinese-American community). It isn't that any one group can do the art better--just that those closer to the instructor, in whatever sense, may be given more attention.
  11. langgaw

    langgaw New Member

    .....learning is good, understanding makes it better.....langgaw
  12. oosh

    oosh Junior Member

    "Dan Inosanto, Remy Presas, Ted Buot, Ray Dionaldo, etc., etc., etc., all teach here in the States. How much better can it be there?"

    That post comes across somewhat arrogant aswell as ignorant, though I suspect that you did not intend to write it the way it reads. I have read similar sentiments from U.S FMAists on other forums in regards to studying in the PI, the very source of the art we all study. This "why bother going to study at the source, when we have just as good here" stance completely baffles me if I am to be honest. In my opinion it is important on so many levels to visit the PI, not just to further one's progression within the art, but to experience the culture that gave birth to the art.
  13. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I'd love to visit the Philippines for just that reason. No argument.
  14. Rocky

    Rocky New Member

    I don't think anyone is saying its not worth training in the Philipines, of course it would be great to go back to where it all started and see the culture and walk on the very ground that many of our instructors played on..... But I beleive there is more truth in the fact that many of the Grand Master are in the U.S then you want to give credit too......My example is this could learning Anciongs Original Balintawak in the Philipines be better then learning it under his successor GM Ted Buot right here in the U.S.A???? Pekiti Tersia right here in the U.S under GM Leo Gaji..........Now to go to the Philipines to see and experience the flavor of the many great GM's still there would be awesome.....

    now as a whole I would expect that in the Philipines they may train and paly harder, then many here in the to the lawyers here in the U.S sueing everyone for anything...But even so if you look there are those here in the U.S that train just as hard.

  15. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    That we most certainly do, Rocky!

    Having said that, I plan on making it to the Phillipines to train in a few years. No doubt it will be a great time.

    Brian R. VanCise
  16. kruzada

    kruzada Punong Guro

    Many instructors that teach the same art, have different approaches and insights that make learning even the exact same technique or style from many different sources very worthwhile IMO. No two individuals teach, or fight in exactly the same manner. It just isn't possible.

    I always encourage my students to study from as many instructors in our system as possible, because each and every one has something unique to offer.

    I think the same can be said of Masters and Grandmasters here and in the P.I. . A perfect example would be the Presas brothers; GM Remy, GM Ernesto and GM Roberto. Each of these Grandmasters has their own favorite range, styles and techniques. Neither one has/had a better approach to teaching Arnis, but all three have/had something unique to impart to their students.

    I envy individuals such as Master Cristino Vasquez, Master Rene Tongson, Master Samuel "Bambit" Dulay and others (IMAFP), who have had the opportunity to train with all three of the Presas brothers.

    There are many great Masters of the FMA right here in the U.S., that is true. But as many styles as there are that are available in the U.S., there are so many more in the P.I. that have a relatively limited international presence, but have just as much to offer as any other style of FMA. Such as W.E.D.O. Combat Arnis, Tres Puntas, Doblete Rapelon, Yaw Yan and many more.

    -Rich Acosta
  17. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

    On this topic,
    I was talking to professor Presas year ago and told him that I was planning on going to the Philippines. His comment to me was “You don’t have to go, I am here”. Then I told him I wanted to go primarily for cultural reasons. His response to that was that I should go. As far as which is better, I don’t think you can come up with a definite answer. There are advantages to training in both places that the other does not have. I travel the world teaching martial arts, and everywhere I go, I see things that I bring back to my school. In addition, there also ideas and methods that I spread while teaching my seminars. No one has a monopoly on the material. We can ALL learn from each other.

    Now for this thread..
    This topic was started as an attack on me due to comments I made about officiating at a tournament. Obviously, these people have started up accounts on our forum, and instead of trying to state their position from a logical point of view they have lashed out and attacked me. The result of this is the beginnings of a feud on this thread. For those who don’t know, I am the owner of FMA Talk. I have started this forum to promote Filipino martial arts in a positive manner and to bring our community together for a stronger presence in the martial arts world. This thread is not helping the matter any. Instead it is driving a wedge between us and pushing us further apart. I am now taking action in closing this thread. For those who have joined FMAT to abuse it, if you continue these actions you will be banned from this website. In case anyone thinks I am overreacting, I have already had conversations with people who were contemplating quitting, due to some of the actions of our newest members of late.

    This thread is now closed!
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