The Title of Datu.

Discussion in 'General' started by ghuimo, Aug 5, 2006.

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  1. ghuimo

    ghuimo New Member

    i met rick in the philippines. i am one of the students of shihan lledo. i haven't seen hartman but it is not a matter of who won but how you fought and how you accepted your defeat. i can say that rick is not equipped with those high level but fancy moves but he has a very good foundation. eventhough you have the techniques, you mastered the techniques, your mind should be one with your body. i believe this is the state of rick during the tournament plus keeping your foot on the ground.

    "Rick the only area I see where we MIGHT and I say MIGHT disagree (* As I care for those little things you were whining about *) is that of a Filipino versus an American, and that the Filipino will always be better and that Training in the PI is always better. " - rich parson

    as for rich parson, training in the philippines is no better than training in other places.. you should only have a good trainer.. and i believe my shihan is one of the best.. he trained many champions here in the philippines. plus he focuses not just on skills but more of the discipline. everybody is a champion, you just need to choose your field..

    rick, please tell shihan we hope to see him soon and you too rick. we are doing our thing here with shihan's son, renshi mark... ^_____^
     
  2. langgaw

    langgaw New Member

    Salamat Mr Sepuku,

    What I am about to share maybe controversial to everyboby. Mr Sepuku requested that I say something about Arnis rules , regulations, etc. I have to be very careful when saying anything which can only be the truth. I would swear to say only the facts and historical truths based on what I learned from teachers, students researchers, books and founded claims. I wish to keep this a healthy intelligent discussion and push that political and legal air away.

    I know people will start sueing and cursing and defaming, etc and this is not the intent whatso ever. But I have a lot of stimulating questions to share with everyone.given the chance to write in this forum. For now I will start with one. The next ones will follow after we satisfy our knowledge base through helpful exchange of data.

    I have asked teachers, students, politicians. people on the street ....in regions , provinces, localities, arnisadors, GMs, almost all that I have encountered here and there........about this question " Can a foreigner be granted a title of DATU ?

    100 % insisted NO!!!.... and then came a series of ...buts, only ifs, except ons, because, regardless, etc..

    My opinion.... A "Datu" title can ONLY be granted to a native who deserves the title from SOMEONE (usaually representing a group of elders) historically authorized to grant such in a ritual befitting a Royalty Datu.
    All other datus (small letter d) are nothing but brand names. Thank you. Comments please.

    Nagtahud sa tanan,

    Langaw
     
  3. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I have started a new thread for this topic.

    -Arnisador
    -FMAT Admin
     
  4. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

  5. langgaw

    langgaw New Member

    Thank you sir.
    Best,

    Langgaw
     
  6. langgaw

    langgaw New Member

    Mr Sepuku and all,

    The administrator has started a new thread about he title of Datu for me. there will be more topics regarding related interests. Mr Sepuku, my answer to your request is in a new thread.........-rd-
     
  7. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    Sir,

    No Disrespect meant, but your post has made me want to ask some questions.

    What regions did you ask? If I do not know them, then I will look them up.

    What region were these people born in that you asked?

    What religion (* If any *) were the people you asked?

    How many people?


    Like I said no disrespect, but those Filipino's I have had the priviledge to talk to and ask serious questions of nto many can agree upon how to sayt a word let alone the meaning of a word. I have met some who do not even know that Arnis or Escrima are arts of the PI. I have met some who were mad that I a non-filipino has trained in such arts.

    So, I ask to get a better understanding of your data, not to question the integrity of the data or your presentation, for I believe you when you make your comments.

    I am just trying to better understand.

    Thank you
     
  8. langgaw

    langgaw New Member

    Mr Balintawak,

    No disrespect taken at all. I am referring to the 13 regions in the Phil plus the NCR (national Capital region), CAR( Cordillera Admin.Region) and the Autonomous Muslim Mindanao Region. I gathered a sizable sample (with help of students, etc) for statistical purposes. involving major religions (big percent Roman Catholics) and mostly native borns. I expected detail questions like this a nd that is fine except that I believe going in this direction will cloud the main line of thought or question. Again I am not stopping you from inquiring.

    There are alot (Millions) of Pinoys in my homeland and specially abraod who knows nothing about arnis. Most even think it is Indonesian and malaysian and muslim art but not Philippine arnis.. that does not surprise me at all.
    Moreover those who know are very nationalistic and hate non-filipinos who are getting good at the art. It is only with foreigners that the art got some boost in popularity because it became commercial. The problem with pinoys is that they are extremely shy and secretive. Note , I said non pinoy that are getting good....not better....because in world of traditional arnis, the world has not seen enough yet. No disrespect to you and Balintawak too and even Modern arnis, sir....there are better systems (not style) out there. The 2 traits of pinoys hinder the propagation of the real arnis. I have encountered those in the shadows and they are in fact afraid to show it at all. I myself is a traditional warrior and am not allowed to teach it until I reach a certain age. I am a new gen with traditional background and just learning the tech of the new age that is way I am sharing this hi-tech. This is sad ...but then... you know...people will question you and challenge you and for what .....usually for pride and money.....I am over that by the way....reason why I ahve to mature first before sharing the art........

    What I am trying to do is learn what others think of questions right in front of us. I thank you sir fro yor inquiry.

    ...-rd-
     
  9. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    Sir,

    First let me apologize for posting from my "Balintawak" Mod Account.

    My Name is Rich Parsons. Please call me Rich.

    Second, that is good that you did this study and included more than just the Southern Regions that may have also Religious connotations to the title as well.

    I respect those I have trained with from the PI.

    I never stated that any single art is better than another, it is always up to the will power and fight in the person, not the reputation of the system or of those who also have trained.

    I respect many who have lived and trained in the PI as well. Even those I have not meet, but only heard of or have the chance to talk to one of thier students.

    Yet, I must now draw a line on some of what you have said and implied.

    No art is too deadly to practice (* Well maybe Global Thermonuclear Warfare if practiced with real weapons *) or teach. I respect that one may want to understand the charcater of a person before teaching them how to hurt or kill someone else. That I respect. The other is hiding behind mysticism and BS.

    As to Good versus better, this is back to my arguement that being of a culture or nationality does not guarentee success or superiority, it does promote racism and discrimination. That is fine if you want to do it in your own little part of the world. But here on this Board and others, and in my part of the world I will challenge that idea of someone of a certain nationality being better just because. (* Not afraid if you want to meet me and talk to me about our difference of attititude either. *)

    As to being involved with better arts, that is fine some cover other areas diffenently then what I train. I say good. I enjoy what I train. If you think that I as an individual, who has been stabbed, hit by a car, a truck, beat up by multiple people and survived it all, and made sure many went to the hospital, and even had to revive one or two who I had knocked so far out they were not breathing, makes those I teach just a tuff or stupid as I am then we disagree. Being shot at does not make a good gun fighter. It does make me lucky or a survivor.

    So, while I respect that you train in an FMA, and have the benefit of the culture, please continue to present your opinions and comments here, but I ask you as a non-pinoy practitioner of the FMA's to check your attitude at the door, so your knowledge has a better chance to reach people. Otherwise people will just ignore you, and while I agree that many in the arts art secretive, and shy, one does not need to add antoher reason for why people do not learn.

    Thank you
     
  10. Sheldon Bedell

    Sheldon Bedell New Member

    ok and now back to the discussion of what is a datu an what the title means in today’s world

    Dose the word refers to a warlord or a chieftain or a leader, or what ever.
    or it strictly a religious title or one given to those that deserve it (in the givers view)
     
  11. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    Datu, as pertaining to Modern Arnis it really is just a title that Remy gave to a few. I do not see it as alot different then Master of Tapi Tapi or Senior Master, etc. You see he tried to please everyone and keep everybody happy. Sometimes when you do that you want to give them a title. So that is what he did. Just my opinion. Nor does it lesson the title just puts it in perspective.

    Brian R. VanCise
    www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
     
  12. PeteNerd

    PeteNerd Member

    A Datu is basically a chief or elder of a tribe. There are idigenous groups in the philippines that still use the title of Datu. They mainly deal with protecting the rights and lands of the indigenous tribal peoples of the philippines. They are recognized by the United Nations charter for idigneous peoples.

    The Datus Alimaong (Holy Warriors) are involved with the idigenous people in the Visayas and Mindanao.

    As far as foreigners being allowed to have the Datu. I witnessed the Datu Alimaong's sacred rites and induction ceremony where they added new members and they bestowed the honorary title of Datu on a couple foreigners. I was able to attend the ceremony because my instructor and I were asked to perform as an offering during the ceremonies. Most of the Datu's now a days don't know much about the philippines idigenous martial arts. My instructor is friends with the Datus and said they were always asking him to join.

    The modern arnis title of datu is just that a title in modern arnis. I don't think any of the people who have the modern arnis title of "datu" are trying to say that they are filipino tribal leaders. For whatever reason the founder of this system thought it would be an appropriate title and gave it to them. I'm not sure how the real Datu's would react to them using the title of Datu, and not's really none of my business. Basically what I'm trying to say is that the title of Datu in Modern Arnis only has any real power or authority within the system of Modern Arnis.

    Outside of Modern Arnis the title doesn't much matter, and shouldn't really concern anyone. If they decided to roll down to the Visayas or Mindanao and start claiming they were Datus or something, then they might have some problems.

    Pete
     
  13. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Modern Arnis is not the only FMA to have practitioners styled as Datu. For example, there is Datu Halford Jones (of Arnis Lanada). Also, see this post featuring our own Datu Darrell Sarjeant.
     
  14. PeteNerd

    PeteNerd Member

    My wife is a Filipina so I asked her what she thought of foreigners using the title of Datu. She said that to her it just sounds corny. There's no way they are real datu's so why bother. She said unless you're filipino you can't be a real datu anyway. It's like calling yourself king or sultan or chief.

    Pete
     
  15. langgaw

    langgaw New Member

    Rich,

    First of all, I missed your statement that asingle art is better than another. There are many arts out there that and more effective .....in many ways....like effective deception. angles of atttack, direct-ness of attack,flows etc..

    again on the ....no art is to deadly to practice. Of course there is or are many...that is why they mock weapons with blunt wood metal and sticks. In the stick fighting alne., if you give both of them a real pinuti then the fight is done in seconds even if both are skilled .... that is a deadly art to practice......so practice they do using rattan sticks.

    and also ....hiding behind mysticism and BS. This statement does not sound nice to me. But then this is a forum.You make your response very personal and that is exactly the direction that I do not want to go. Obviously, it is a western attitude I yet have to understand. By the way, why did the monks hide their art before and what about the chi.... there is mysticism in it too. Obviously you seem limited in your knowledge about the mystical aspect of the FMA art. Physical is good but do not stop there.

    Pleasae teach me how to check my attitude at the door so I wont be ignored and for that other reason that you are saying ....you have talked too deeply that my simple mind can not comprehend.maybe our friends can help explain some.

    Honestly, I am offended by your approach but do not mind me because you are not in my place (you respect your elders wishes even if you disagree specially in modern times) and this is just a forum anyway....nothing personal.

    We may meet someday sir, and then you will understand. Let us just keep to the question at hand just like Mr Sheldon, Mr Petenerd and Mr Vancise are doing.

    Nagtahud,
    langaw
     
  16. Sepuku

    Sepuku New Member

    Seems like you have the Attitude problem Sir. Mr. Langgaw did not attack or try to offend anyone. If you read is first posting he tried to avoid it and explain himself. He gave all of us a heads-up and expected people to be somewhat offended but asked to be open minded. It did not call for an Attack by you ..."not Afraid if you want to meet... " or brag about how many people you have knocked out.

    You did not offer any knowledge at all like Mr. Langgaw did. At least he offered some information about the subject at hand. Because the way you wrote that posting... it makes me want to Ignore you. However, I know you are one of the Moderators in this forum and usually have good opinions to offer or help resolve a problem.

    Now... I would just like to say Salamat Po' Mr. Langgaw for the brief lesson and the others who have offered their own contributions in the matter. I'm here to learn from all of you. Being new to Arnis, all your knowledge and experiences are appreciated. Thank you!
     
  17. Sepuku

    Sepuku New Member

    Just to let everyone know... this Thread really stemmed from Datu Tim Hartman's comments on Page 6 of thread "Aftermath". Mr. Langgaw and myself were the only ones who really noticed that Datu Hartman's use of words were not appropriate for his Title. It just shocked me that a 9th Degree Black Belt would belittle another Arnisador or insult another Guro.

    Therefore I asked Mr. Langgaw what a real Datu is. Since he is from Cebu in the Philippines, an Arnisador himself, and History Teacher. From all the postings he has wrote, I respect his opinions and find him very knowledgeable. Learning from your Elders is a great thing. "knowledge is power" and I look forward to expanding my mind and vision and self. PeteNerd also offered good facts so I suggest keeping an open mind and listening to what people have to say in this forum.
     
  18. Sepuku

    Sepuku New Member

    Thank you Mr. Langgaw. I will check out the new thread. Hope you dont ruffle too many feathers. lol There is much to learn about the Filipino Arts, this country is just a baby in it. Promoting FMA the "right way" will hopefully bring it to a higher level.

    JohnJ and yourself seem to have great insight and knowledge, so I look forward to learning more from both of you. Salamat Po'
     
  19. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    Sir,

    I did not make the statement you did. It was your first trollish point I was trying to address.

    Hmmm, it seems to me they are practicing it with Rattan or wood to represent the blade. So you make my point that there are no arts too deadly to practice as one can find a way.

    What do the Monks have to do with this. You brought up the cultural issue. While being offensive to all non natives to the PI.

    And who said I stopped with just the physical, what I meant to say is that you and others hide behind this mystic that if one is not from the PI then they cannot learn a FMA. Pure and simple put this is racist. Why not just look up some Nazi slogans, and go the whole way, and start going after those not of your own nationality.

    You can be ignored real easy by people not reading your posts.

    You can be ignored by those who own and run this site closing or disabling or banning your account or IP. (* I speak generically here as a member, no threat meant only trying to help you understand to avoid such an issue. *)

    No problem, enlighten me to who "our" mutual friends may be and I would be more than willing to talk to them.

    And I was and am Offended by your racist attitudes about only PI nationals can teach and or practice and or learn a FMA. As to respect of elders I do respect them. I have held back many times to avoid conflict one or more has not wanted. I have also tried to appease to make things better.

    But pure and simple racism is something where I draw the line, and those Elders who have taught me and I have given my respect freely too, also seem to laugh and agree with me about how only a PI native can learn. So maybe they broke the code and taught some non PI natives, but there are some who are trying to learn and those who have learned.

    As to meeting, You know my name. Your signature is in lower case, and I am not sure what is your name or how to address you. For you see, I told you to call me Rich. You did not reply in kind, as if a non PI native is not worthy of addressing you. Which is fine, as I will continue with the veiled respectful addresses. And if we meet please be man enough to introduce yourself, so I know who you are. I would be glad to have that understanding you speak of. Been to the school of hard knocks and it seems one must go back to the well occasionally or get soft.

    By the way, I could not translate Nagtahud. None of the online translations would handle it either. I apologize for not knowing the language. I am still learning some Cebuano.


    *********************************************************


    Now as to Datu:

    Yes in Modern Arnis the Title is used.

    In some other arts I have seen it used.

    One of my instructors (* Modern Arnis *) did give out the title.

    The other instructor laughs and says anyone who is in charge of their own school is a Datu or Leader if they wish to be.

    I also recognize it is a symbol of pride in the PI, and in particular with those of the southern region.

    I have seen the arguement so many times, and almost always the claim is that everyone in the PI knows what the word means and any non PI native who deems to use it (* or was given it *) is stealing something from the culture or is a fraud. All of this many times is based upon the fact of just their skin color. (* Yes, I have a big problem with discrimination. *)

    So, while I respect your opinion to not use the title or not train with someone because of the title, it is your blatant racist attitude that I find offending.

    So please excuse me, for being offended by this attitude, when you might have some data and some perspective that could be beneficial to thsoe here to learn from. Yet, the more I see in writing I begin to wonder.
     
  20. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    I apologize if you took offense.

    I took offense at something that I am finding more and more.

    A non PI Native can train their life and they are worse than anyone in the PI just becuase they live there.

    He came across with his attitude and yes I came back with mine for may reasons.

    1) To show how easy it is to offend upon the net.
    2) To show a mirror attitude and how takes all possible discussion away once one person goes there even if they couch it with words of not tryting to be offensive. Racism is offensive in any form at any time.
    3) To state I find his words offensive and offending and that I will argue against his Racist point of view.

    His reply to my first post: (* and my first post as "Rich Parsons" explains the accounts. *)
    In this statement from directly above:
    He makes the comment that it is bad to ask about the data. He implies that I am inquiring into something even after he asked me not too. This is like me saying that all the GREAT GM's have already left the PI and are here in the States, and only the second rate instructors are left. But we should not inquire into this as this would cause negative and politcal discussions. (* PLEASE NOTE: There are great GM's of many systems in the PI, I was only making a point. *)

    This could be read as a vieled comment about stick arts versus blade arts. In particular if you reference his reply back to me about blade systems.


    Yet the preceeding line:
    . . . is the Line I really took and take offense of.

    This makes the implication that non Pinoy's cannot learn the art for they could not understand nor have they seen enough.

    This lead me to make my comments about seeing violence, so the PI is not alone in seeing violence.

    It also states that any Non Pinoy can not be better than anyone in the PI just based upon location and Culture. That is RACISM.

    So I am sorry you took offense.

    I dislike Racism in any form. So I called him on it. Yet, it seems that this form of Racism is so accepted in the culture and in those who study FMA that no one seemed to notice it. This is also the Mysticism I was talking about. Like being there and living the violence and being of the culture makes it so only they truly understand the art or system.


    Yet for a bunch of people willing to learn and also wanting to express themselves and be intelligent about it and avoid political issues, they sure seems to be alot of comments that by themselves may not be that bad, but when taken in as a whole, are something bad. This bothers me.
     
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