The Family Tree

Discussion in 'Balintawak' started by Datu Tim Hartman, Nov 9, 2005.

  1. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member

    Perhaps you should ask around the Balintawak community before presuming that Atillo "Balintawak" should be considered missing. I'm thinking it's right where it's supposed to be: not in the list. Besides, "don't fuss over it; it's only a name".

    Robert
     
  2. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    Tombo,

    Where did you get this information?

    From Ising's site he has claimed that GM Bacon was not the creator but his father was. Then on others who have posted on a site that no longer exists his followers posted the Ising was the first GM of Balintawak. And in it all he claims it comes directly from the Saavedra training.

    Which one is true? I think none of them as all the other families of Balintawak can agree on a few things, and one of the major ones is That GM Bacon was the creator.


    Also, this is the first I have heard of others beside GM Bacon or GM Buot teaching at the back of the watch shop in the club on Balintawak St. I am curious to see the source so we can triangulate on its accuracy and verify who else taught there.

    I thought that Villasin and Velez and Lopez and Maranga and Mongcal and others were teaching on their own but not at the Club on Balintawak street. I thought they were also teaching in their own places before the event you listed that broke them up.


    As to the sparring that turned full contact, I would like to hear your source and also the story of what happened. The information I have is that Bacon was going to Agak C. Atillo as a favor to V. Atillo. And as GM Bacon was going through the fundamentals C Atillo (Ising) struck GM Bacon and then claimed he had gotten inside his defense. I have no doubt that anyone can get hit. But when someone his feeding the punyo to someone so they can show their basics to the GM and then they change it into a fight where one side does not know it is a fight, then I have to ask why? So, I would like to know your source so I could try to see if this is a different altercation then one described to me or is it just another "Story" told by the Atillo Family in trying to re-write Balintawak History?

    I am not trying to be difficult here. I am trying to ask questions, to maybe learn more myself. I am asking questions so you can learn and maybe search for some of what i referenced as well.

    Thanks
     
  3. Tombo

    Tombo New Member

    I have been hearing conflicting stories hence the "Supposedly" in later part of the post. One of his students told me that thus a definite need for the "supposedly" because I have not proof. Supposedly could have easily been replaced with allegedly. Although it probably would have been helpful had I placed some emphasis on the 'supposedly' so people would have caught it.

    Now what I did catch first hand from Ising at a seminar once was that Bacon was the Grandmaster when they formed the club. Granted he was a bit hard to understand but what I took out of it was that his father was more of a co-founder of the club but most certainly not the GrandMaster. Not being the GM would be indication to me that he wasn't the founder.

    Also, Ising mentioned that Bacon trained his father. So wouldn't that further prove that his father wasn't the founder and the true lineage (of Ising's line) is Bacon -> V. Atillo -> C. Atillo and not V. Atillo -> C. Atillo?

    Does he claim founding Balintawak as a whole or a subdivision of it? If Atillo is claiming his father was the founder why not put the true lineage out there (Bacon -> Atillo -> Atillo) instead of ignoring it. Ignoring it to me seems almost as bad as falsifying it.

    So even if someone is falsifying it, claiming they were the founder or something, don't leave them out. Show their lineage so everyone can see where exactly they fall in the realm of things. I would rather see a complete 'although controversial' history than a rewritten history.

    Just my 2cents worth and that's about all its worth (if that).
     
  4. cuentada

    cuentada New Member

    just my 2 ...you know what

    hi there from germany.

    I don,t know what was said from the atillo group-and I really don,t care.
    I for myself trained in the 80s extensively with Ising and his father Vincente. Back than there was no doubt that Isings art was balintawak.
    Sure the atillos did no velez/villasin grouping method at all- but hey their art is clearly balintawak. for example-no doubt about the rivaling taekwondo world ass. with so many different forms, hyong vs.poomse etc.-but hey its taekwondo- and look at the different wing chun styles around the world.
    From my point of view ising made some minor to major adjustments and in my point of view improvements to the style he learnd from delfin lopez, vincente atillo, timor maranga during that time.
    also there was some kind of reluctance to the gouping balintawaks during that time. I wasn,t there at that time but I learned in my life that there is probably more than just one truth.
    anyway I have to give up now my job as a desktop warrior- it,s real life training time;-)

    last comment: back in the 80s I experienced Ising much-much-more powerfull, flashy and charismatic than his fellow balintawaks-just my 2...you know what

    mahlzeit...
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2008
  5. Tombo

    Tombo New Member

    And as such he should be on the Balintawak Tree, right?
     
  6. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    Well I am for one to present what I know to be true or what I can verify through multiple sources. In the beginning I would have had no problem with him being on the tree.


    He should not be on the tree, because he has taken himself off the tree with his website with his stories to his nephews. His nephews are great for running around on the web trying to intimidate people.

    If his webiste or if he apologizes in a major publication to all the students of Balintawak for his Lies and misrepresentation of facts all known by everyone else, I would consider the discussion of putting him on the tree. But as all the information I have , which is just from the net i.e. posts or his websites that are now down., states he claims to have Balintawak not from GM Bacon but from his Father and the Saavedras. His story has changed some many times, that I cannot keep it straight. It is easier to tell the truth as it means you have to remember less. Should he be on the tree? One would think so, but I refuse to give him any form of respect by honoring him on the tree when he has done nothing but try to present lies and mis-information to only better himself not the art of Balintawak or FMA in general.

    Also, if one adds him there could be those that would try to sign up and remove him. But I guess this discussion gets him press even if it is negative press. Personally I think he would have done much better just having his own organization and promoting it and being honest about his history and experience.
     
  7. Mono

    Mono Member

    Well, but should the "Family Tree" of Balintawak not include any Person, Style, Influenced-Subsystem etc. to form a complete, non-political and valid Picture of where Balintawak falls into and who/what styles/Systems/Teachers have a - however small, tight or distant - connection to "Balintawak"?

    Noone can deny the obvious Connections between the Atillo Line and the Balintawak School - no matter if people from Teovels, Maranga, Villasin, Buot or even Atillo himself try to deny this, change facts or even history (for whatever modern, commercial, political or personal reason...)!

    History can not be changed! No matter if people like it or not! One can of course "sepearate" oneself from a certain Group, badmouth them, tell Lies, change names or whatever - but none of this will undo the connections, that have been there in the past!

    I understand your point - but should the FamilyTree really be a "personally favored collection of Individuals" or should it honor "historical Facts"?

    By not including the Atillo line I believe it is taking away from Honor and Glory from GM Bacon and the Balintawak.
    By not showing ALL the Lines, Systems, Methods and Teachers it has had an influence on, the "full expansion" of the System is Reduced...
    Maybe compareable to those who try to refuse that Remy Presas - and through him, all of the Modern Arnis Family - is in a certain way, Part of the Balintawak Family (through all the Changes Remy made, maybe not really a "Branch" of a Tree any more - but Balintawak is undeniably one of the Roots of MA...)

    Side Note: I do not know Ising or anyone from the Atillo Family, never met them, so this is no personal issue of me trying to gat anyone anywhere or pushing or advertising him/them - I do have "felt" the "Atillo" Way of interpreting Balintawak through Atillos german Studens though, so I know what it is like.
    I am just trying to look at the FMA World and its History from a non political point of view...

    So those are just my 2ct (sorry for my bad english - I hope things are not understood in any way as criticism or in a negative way - just trying to bring a different point of view into the discussion!)

    Greetings from Germany,

    Philipp "Mono" Wolf
    www.balintawak-eskrima.de
     
  8. Tombo

    Tombo New Member

    Ok, so I finally got around to reading Atillo's website to see what his story is. No where under history do I find him saying he invented Balintawak nor his lineage as being his father and Saavedra. Here is what I found:
    • Lorenzo “Tatay Ensong” Saavedra organized the Doce Pares Club in 1932
    • Lorenzo “Tatay Ensong” Saavedra started teaching 14-year-old Teodoro “Doring” Saavedra, his nephew, Anciong Bacon, and a few others.
    • Grandmaster Bacon was the Godson of Ising’s grandfather. (note he calls him Grandmaster)
    • Delfin Lopez was Ising Atillo's Godfather and Vicente Atillo's cousin
    • Ising's father and Delfin Lopez were good friends of Doring and learned from him.
    • Bacon and Delfin Lopez went to Vicente Atillo's house and decided to form another club. (Doesn't say Vicente started it)
    • Bacon was the grandmaster of the club and the main teacher. When he wasn't there Lopez and Atillo (Vicente) would do the teaching. (indicates they were below bacon)
    • Ising Atillo learned from his father.
    • All the members at that time were of the Saavedra style (this includes Bacon and makes sense since they were all originally from Doce Pares under the Saavedras)
    • Ising Atillo is of the first generation of Balintawak (this means he was of the first generation, the original members when the club first formed, all under one teacher/grandmaster -- Bacon. This does not mean he founded it.).
    So Ising just pretty much supports what I said... Bacon -> V. Atillo -> I. Atillo. However you mentioned he has changed his story many times but this is the version now.

    Now he can claim himself as the founder of Atillo Balintawak and this wouldn't be misrepresentation as it would be no different than Al Tracy after learning from Ed Parker so many years founding Tracy's Kenpo or Jeff Speakman founding Kenpo 5.0 etc... They are all still Kenpo and they all learned from the same source. Just different variations.

    I have to agree with Mono 100%. Putting people in/out of the lineage just because you agree/disagree with them for whatever reason is a gross misrepresentation of the art and a disservice to those seeking facts. Let the truth speak for itself there is no need to rewrite it. Someone can't take themselves off the tree if they are in fact part of that tree. Jeff Speakman can claim all he wants to have never had any ties with Ed Parker, yet he would still belong on the Parker Kenpo Tree.
     
  9. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    While I used to always want to represent the truth, and I respect that history should not be re-written. I am just very frustrated by his stories and by his lies. Then now he can try to pull what he said before, and deny it was said and then play it off that everyone else is being mean to him.

    Once again his ego is the center, and we are all supposed to just follow.

    Check out: http://web.archive.org/web/*/balintawak.com and see what the archives has to offer.


    From Who's Who of the archive:
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]

    Also

    [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1] I find both of these insulting to all the students of Balintawak. I think he has made the bed he is in. So while I agree in theory he should be on the tree. I would like to have an * by his name for being a liar.

    Thanks
    [/SIZE][/FONT]
     
  10. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    Tombo,

    Do disrespect to you or the Doces Pares or the Saavedras, but when it comes to Ising Atillo, I do not believe anything anymore.

    Check out the links in my previous post and read the archives to see what I mean. A lot of stuff is missing as the archive.org is not the best, but it is the best that is available.

    Thanks
     
  11. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member

    The Atillo debate could go on and on, and would likely degenerate into the same morass that it has many times over. Besides, it's...

    :schild15:

    Tombo, Mono: I advise that if you're truly interested in sorting these things out, that you do your own fact checking by reading the many prior threads available on this site and others, and talking to other people who are knowledgeable of Balintawak history. For starters, try contacting Wilson Ceniza. He's probably the single best source on Balintawak history whom I know of. In the end, you'll need to come to your own conclusions about what is fact or fiction and who you think belongs. I would caution you however, about citing the Atillo website as a reference. The stories on that site have changed many times and grow with each telling. It's well known that many of the claims and stories are outright fabrications.

    With that, I'll exit the debate. Anything ellse would simply be beating the proverbial dead horse.

    :deadhorse


    Robert
     
  12. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    Robert and I have never met.

    Robert and I come from different branches of the tree.

    I agree with Robert here, on checking your facts and contacting others to see what they have to say.

    I do wish you all the best and hope you find what you are looking for.

    Thanks
     
  13. Mono

    Mono Member

    Well, I have never quotet any Website for reference - and I have heard many storys beeing told from different Angles/Points of view!
    I do see and understand your point in - well, lets put it in friendly words - "not liking" Atillo and therefore denying his Spot on the Tree - so ist perfectly fine by me.

    Thanks :)
    Same to you!

    But as mentioned before - I am not trying to speak "in favor" of Atillo or lessening any of the "Badmouthing", Lying or whatever he might have done...

    Maybe another example of what I mean:

    Immagine having a Brother (same Biological Parents) - this brother turns out to murder your/his parents because of some argument and tries to deny any connection to "those people" (including any Uncles, Brother(s) etc.).
    Now, even if the other parts of the Family will greatly appreciate him saying that "he is not Part of this Family", the Biological connection can not be denied or undone...

    There is always a "Family" in a philosphical way, that may always include people who are not "Blood-Related" or outcast People who are born to be part of it.
    And then there is the "Biological" Family - no matter how hard one tries, no member can be excluded, no "non member" will ever be part of it...

    This is what it looks like to me...
    Do I care? No! Do I feel offended? No!
    I prefer the "non political" point of view and even more important, I prefer pure Training over historical connections/relations/lineages/politics - even though they are interesting :)
    In the End, techniqe and skill will tell!

    Greetings,
    Mono
     
  14. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    I have a grand mother. She does not speak to me. As she does not recognize me how can I speak or recognize her? How can I support anything she does. She denies I am part of the family.

    So, if Atillo denies he is part of the family who am I to argue that he belongs on the list. I never saw him train with anyone in the Balintawak family. No one in the Family claims him as his own, so he seems to be that "cousin" at eh family reunion that no one knows and cannot figure out how they are related. When the cousin is just their to get some free food.

    If someone else puts him on a list I am not going to bad mouth them.

    If someone else puts him on a list I will just ignore it.

    But when people try to say he is being slighted or that his lies are the truth, then I have a problem.

    I prefer skill and technique as well. I also used to be a major proponent for the absolute truth, but how does one define it. In the last few years I have become to get old in my mind set. If Old men are allowed to tell tales which is how some brush off he Atillo lies, then why am I not allowed to speak my opinion instead of just trying to get along with people. I just to try to get along and see the best in people but after they burn and or use you a few times, I put them behind me or I no longer am friendly.

    To me, you have done nothing more than express opinions be they yours or you playing devil's advocate, in a manner trying to get a point across. I have seen no issue with your points only that I personally disagree with them and think that we as a community should take action against him by not listing him and by ignoring him and letting him disappear into nothing as people will see over time the lies and incomplete statements.

    Technique and Skill we agree upon. :)
     
  15. prodigy235

    prodigy235 New Member

    Hello,

    I'm new here. This thread looked real interesting. I just began training Balintawak a little while ago. All talk of Atillo aside, I was just wondering if there were any updates made to this family tree. If so, I would love to take a look. Thanks
     
  16. FancyNancy

    FancyNancy New Member


    Manong Jimboy Hife,

    It is an honor.

    Are you still based in China or now Cebu?

    Are you still teaching the art of Balintawak?

    How can we contact you for lessons and tuition information?


     

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