The empty hands of FMA

Discussion in 'General' started by Pinuti, Jun 9, 2014.

  1. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    Hello, I've only practiced eskrima in the USA, (because I'm a fil-am) for a short period of time with out progressing all the way to training purely with empty hands, I mostly do boxing which is somewhat based off the boxing used in the Philippines which is basically punches and elbow strikes aiming towards the limbs or oncoming punches or kicks (meeting fist to fist) to get close and grapple using something I like to call "backyard wrestling" which is also somewhat based of dumog just a lot of covering to defend against strikes and take downs, with some low line kicks to keeps opponent at a certain distance or to certain situations when really needed.

    I was wondering (to get a better understanding of fma) what it mostly compose of and what are its strengths of weaknesses of fma. NOW, I know that we can't speak for all of fma considering there are hundreds of styles, so lets just have a friendly discussion for the sake of purifying my ignorance of the martial arts of the Philippines and talk about the more old and traditional way of fma and SOME of the more modern ones like Yaw-yan or sayoc kali.

    However to be more specific so I won't confuse anyone, is that I want to talk about the empty hands of fma such as panantukan, sikaran, yaw yan, kino mutai and even dumog/buno. How well do these empty hands fare well against other unarmed martial arts such as say the typical karate or western boxing or hell lets go a little more exotic like muay thai or indonesian silat.
  2. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    I'm sorry if this question is offensive, considering the negative feedback I have received from martial artist that consist of muay thai and boxing practitioners which is ironic considering I'm talking about fma. As I stated before I was only curious and wanted to receive answers myself from the eskrimadors here in fma talk
  3. MacJ_007

    MacJ_007 Junior Member

    GM Bobby Tabimina said to me a long time ago, "Unless you have 4 hands and 4 feet, all applications or techniques would have it's similarities with other arts. The only question is can you perform them in real time."
  4. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    Part of the difficulty here is that FMA systems are often so different in how they approach empty hands that this become difficult to answer. For example, in my own training I can definitely say that the manner in which Modern Arnis, Lacoste-Inosanto Kali, and now Pekiti Tirsia Kali approach empty hand work is entirely different. Some systems have empty hand components that look pretty much like boxing or kickboxing, some look just like the angles and attacks taken with the weapon, and some combine these ideas. Some FMA systems have empty hand components that have a great deal in common with Silat, while others have been open about including things from other systems such as Judo, Japanese Jujutsu, etc. Some FMA systems have empty hand components that are designed to stand on their own, while others see their empty hand components as little more than something which will enable them to buy time to deploy a weapon.

    Because of these differences among styles, your question is a challenging one, and one that there are no easy answers to.
  5. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    Yes your completely right about the putting fma on the spotlight when it comes to empty hands because theres just so many styles! Its just that because it focuses a lot on the weapon first, most people think fma as a weapons only art and ignoring the empty hand portion of fma and taking other arts because they think it will "supplement what isn't there" in fma which I don't believe is true. because of how common it is such as takewondo or stereotypical karate. They ignore other arts like sikaran which I think traces before the spainards.

    Anyways, because theres a lot of fma styles, lets go with the ones that are more distinct and indigenous to our culture and country, the Philippines. I've taken a hybrid art between eskrima and takewondo, with a little grappling such as bjj and judo btw.

    From what I've heard and read, I believe that particular styles such as balintawak, doce pares, pekiti tersia kali ( I think its more traditional than a hybrid , Garimot arnis, etc.

    I always found yaw yan to be more of a international/hybrid system because most of its fighting styles have a large sum of muay thai and judo in it, while filipino boxing does a good portion in it to such as the bolo punch (my favorite)
  6. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    It probably is true in some cases, and not so much in others.

    For example, the Lacoste-Inosanto Kali system has a very deep and well developed mano mano aspect. In fact, in a thread of FMA players on another forum, it was the most commonly stated system that they would study to learn empty hands outside of their own system. empty hands&st=0

    However, there are other FMA systems which are not nearly as sophisticated and where the goal of their empty hand component is to buy them time to deploy a weapon, not to stand on its own.

    As for the rest, I'm not touching the pre and post Spanish argument on FMA development. ;o)
  7. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    nice link, the problem i have with people like lucalucay or dan inosantao is that they tend to heavily mix up their martial art, basing their empty hands mostly on western boxing, silat or other foreign arts rather than fma itself, which kind of ruins the point of putting the word "filipino" with the words "martial arts".

    "However, there are other FMA systems which are not nearly as sophisticated and where the goal of their empty hand component is to buy them time to deploy a weapon, not to stand on its own." what do you mean by this?

    What about striking arts of the Phil such as sikaran or suntukan?
  8. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    I"m not sure what kind of styles your familiar with but I assume that if your not accustomed to certain old styles such as baltintawak or maybe doce pares to know or talk about whether they have empty hands that is "sophisticated" and able to stand on their own.
  9. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    I have trained in several styles and have been exposed to several others.
  10. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    As far as I know, Dan Inosanto did not base his FMA empty hands on Western boxing. Several of Guro Dan's instructors had boxing backgrounds, which is not the same thing. Boxing is obviously big in the Philippines, so it is hardly surprising that people coming to America from there would have that Western boxing background before they arrived. .
  11. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    One of the more sketchy things I find about Dan inosanto and his "panantukan" is that hes one of the very few people who actually know it, aside from lucaylucay and his teacher.

    I don't know how familiar the more authentic or "traditional" fma's are in the Philippines such as balintawak, doce pares and pekiti tersia kali etc.

    I'm all in for western boxing, its just that I think it would be more beneficial for Filipinos to also stick to their own thing when it comes to striking, grappling, weapons fighting etc.

    An example would be japan. Japan doesn't really mix their shoot boxing with their karate just like how they don't mix their wrestling with judo/jijutsu or sumo.
    Sometimes they do, but those are schools that are aiming to mix it up

    Thats kind of what I"m aiming for in the Philippines, which is why one day I hope the Phil can made tournaments based on their own arts so that way it can refine itself in combat and hopefully make it its own thing that can be used by itself against other arts like judo or western boxing, rather than relying on foreign arts to get them there.
  12. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    What are you talking about? There is nothing sketchy about Guro Dan's panantukan that I am aware of. He teaches it openly, and many of his students know it extremely well. Heck, there are multiple DVD series that are out based upon the Lacoste-Inosanto Empty hand system (e.g. Ron Balicki's Filipino Boxing, Steve Grody's the Flow of Kali Empty Hands, etc., Rick Tucci's Kali series, not to mention Guro Dan's own dvd series, and his much older VHS series).

    Guro Dan is very open about where he gets his material and gives credit to his teachers all the time. At the seminars I have been to, he starts the afternoon session with some time showing pictures and talking about his instructors.
  13. tim_stl

    tim_stl Junior Member

    I'm having trouble understanding what you're writing. To be clear, are you saying that Garimot arnis is a hybrid art?

  14. MacJ_007

    MacJ_007 Junior Member

    I still don't understand what is being implied by the TS post. What are you trying to achieve? Let me ask you something, how would you know that a movement is balintawak, doce pares or pekiti tirsia, if you yourself haven't experienced those arts? I have replied before the simplest answer there is, but I guess you did not understand it.

    As a Tabimina System practitioner, if I do a 1-2 punch, does that mean I'm doing boxing? Or if I trap someones hand would you call it Wing Chun? Just because a movement looks the same, it is not exclusive to that particular style. That's why I said, it's not really a matter of what techniques you can do or what it looks like, but can you do it in real time. We Balintawaks do not believe in techniques, because we always ask, "How did you get there?" Techniques are only byproducts of an effective attack.
  15. geezer

    geezer Member

    Hey Pinuti-- The best empty hand FMA guys I've worked with didn't give a hoot about how "pure" their stuff was. Two are Filipino American, and the third is Mexican American. I'm Anglo. Who cares? Use what works and give credit where credit is due. To me that's the brilliance of the FMA. They took from everybody and made it their own ...and often made it better in the process. Like Filipino food... Mmmmm ...but I digress.

    On the other hand, perhaps you're primarily interested in preserving the imagined purity of a culture where your ancestors came from? Well, thats something different.
  16. maliksi77

    maliksi77 New Member

    Pinuti: Perhaps, if as Geezer has stated, you are simply interested in preserving the imagined purity of a culture where your ancestors came from, you can set your mind at ease. Despite the efforts of Fil-Ams to create an idealized, “true” native Filipino culture, it is historical truth that the people of many different nations contributed to the development of Philippine customs, traditions, food, folklore, and martial arts.

    Here is an enlightening article in the Manila Times written by Perry Gil Mallari, a longtime contributor to Rapid Journal magazine and now regular writer for the Fight Times section of the Manila Times. The newspaper has a continuing online version you can access regularly…straight from the source!

  17. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    My bad, what I was trying to say was, whether ptk is a hybrid art or a fighting system that is indigenous to the Philippines.
  18. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    Well the only problem I have with lucaylucay and dan inosantao is that they're trying to create a Filipino empty hand system and say its indigenous to the Philippines, when its really not. Its like me saying that yaw-yan was created thousands and thousands of years ago. This is why I like to stick to martial arts that are straight from the Philippines, because there is bound to be someone who uses their fighting skills based on fma and how to deal/adapt to a situation its not used to, WHILE still staying true to the fma concepts/moves. An example would be sikaran and muay thai.
  19. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    I wouldn't, but my point is for the fma styles to stick (no pun intended) to being fma and not have to resort to foreign arts to get them there. I'm not against the idea of hybrid arts, but if we were to call it fma in the first place it should be what that is, fma.
  20. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    well yo usee mr. geezer, theres a difference between changing a martial art by adapting to situations when dealing with other martial arts by using doing their own thing such as a thai boxer developing kicks with out having to have to go and travel all the way to korea or other foreign countries to do so, and a martial arts such as a bjj or krav maga fighter who does and BORROWS techniques from fighting systems that does not originate from their own fighting system.

    After all what is bjj with out jujutsu or judo? wrestling? Or what is krav maga with out its foreign arts, nothing. FMA existed before it was exposed to islam, spain and other arts etc. Although it may have under done through some foreign arts through trade, it was very subtle and adapted it by still sticking to fma with out relying or heavily borrowing from foreign arts to the point where its is base

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