Discussion in 'Balintawak' started by Soncen, Apr 28, 2006.
I already believed in him. Let those who do not believe to ask him!
The innovator of the grouping system was Mr. Velez but the honor was given to Atty Villasin. If there is a Villasin Balintawak grouping system separate from the original, then I think he formulated his own.
The fact the you just belive in him without any proof at all, when GM. John Villasin says that GM. Ver Villasin is not the son of late GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin is up to you.....
That does not change the fact that GM. Ver Villasin is not the son of late GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin and that you want to belive in a false claim rather then ask for proof like a Birth Certificate, then go ahead....
But if thats you attitude with everything, i can imagine there would be a lot of things you would get wrong.....
Just like you get that wrong also....
Its still GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin who made the "grouping system".....
You're still living in Cebu, yes? Perhaps you should go to the park while they're practicing and discuss the matter in person? Maybe Jan would show you his skill in the Villasin grouping system while you're there...
That's the best thing I've read on this thread in some time! Ha! I'm probably not gonna check this one out anymore cuz it's like arguin' with frickin' Pee Wee Herman
"I know you are but what am I?"
just out of curiousity - whats your Point?
From what I have read throughout your Posts you are trying to point out two things:
1. That Ver Villasin is not the Son of Atty. Jose Villasin
2. That the "Villasin Grouping System" is "different" to any other Grouping System.
Now, about number 1: I do not know - there have been some interesting arguments from other Users though.
But since you are so eager to publish the Fact that Ver Villasin is NOT the Son of Atty. Jose Villasin, maybe you should do some research yourself an contact / ask him first before publicly starting discussions about any Familyrelations?!
If I were a direct Student of either of the two "Sons" of Atty. Jose Villasin, I would want to find out as much as I can about all/any "Branches" of this Balintawak Lineage first Hand - especially if there are contradicting Informations/Facts...
About number 2.: You keep stating that the "Villasin Grouping System" is different from others.
I know you are not discussing technical Details of the Villasin Method but...
From what I can see, the Villasin Groupings (as somewhat introduced in this Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Qc1bHGi8I) follow pretty much the same progression as most other Lineages from the Villasin/Velez Lineage I have seen / experienced so far (Elizar, Taboada, Patalinghug, Velez Jr. etc etc):
1. Lifting & Clearing
2. Head Movement
3. Body Movement
Group 4 & 5 are not "named" in the Video above but they also follow what I have seen as named "Familiarization of the Abanico or Fan Strike Defense & Variation" or "Preparation for Speed and Reflex" for Group 4 and Defense against Punches / Attacks with the left Hand for Group 5
I know for a Fact (since I had the honor of meeting / training with all of the above in person or at least with one of their direct Students/Instructors) that all of them follow pretty much the sequence as it is shown in the above Video.
I agree that the "Villasin Grouping System" is porbably different in certain Details from other Groupings; but so is GM Elizars Grouping different from GM Taboadas from GM Chito Velez from any other Master or Grandmasters execution/interpretation of the Groupings...
Some have "added" Groups, sometimes the Groups are named differently, sometimes there are 3, sometimes 4 "Basic Patterns" to a certain Group etc etc - minor changes wherever you look - and everybody agrees on that.
Its all Balintawak, it all follows the Teaching Method of "Grouping" (as introduced to Balintawak from the Villasin/Velez Branch - as opposed to the "ungrouped" Training/teaching Method), its all geared towards beeing spontaneous and applying certain Methods and Concepts in fighting - the "Rest" is details in personal Interpretation out of preference and experience... (or at least thats the way I see it)
Is this what you are trying to say?
If not, what ARE you trying to say and if you say that the Villasin and the "other" Groupings have nothing whatsoever to do with oneanother, how do you explain the similaritys I mentioned above?
As to who was the "Creator" of this type of Grouping method (Villasin or Velez) I do not dare claim or suggest to know - there are others present here who have "been there", others, who have been practicing and researching the Art of Balintawak for more years then I am old - and they have given numerous Informations on this subject.
Some might sound more reasonable to me then others.
I am happy that those people willingly share this Information and I use it, to come to my own conclusions!
I know that I might never know the "real truth" since I have not been there!
But then again, this fact will neither speed up nor slow down my personal growth and abilitys in training and executing the Art of Balintawak - and bottom Line, this is what matters to me; learning & sharing the Art in whatever way I can.
Maybe I have been missing something here - but I just do not see what your point is in this discussion...
Anyways, keep up your training and keep posting on youtube - I always enjoy seeing other Students, Instructors, Masters and Grandmasters of all Branches/Lineages of Balintawak move/train! Thank you for sharing these!
Greetings from Germany,
Philipp "Mono" Wolf
He should be welcome....
My first post was a reaction to someone who did claim GM. Ver Villasin was the son of GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin, so i of course told him what GM. John Villasin told me that GM. Ver Villasin is not the son of GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin and that was the point....
I cant really see why it should be me, who has to prove he is not the son GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin...
Thats first of all asking me to do something thats near impossible and most of the time if people are what they say they are, they will have proof of it and be happy to show it, just like GM. John Villasin has....
GM. John Villasin is happy to show his Birth Certificate to anyone, last time i talked to one of GM. Ver Villasin's student it did not sound like anyone wanted to come up with any real proof....
Besides it not really only a family matter anymore the day GM. Ver Villasin did decide to make false claims to the public, he did make it both a family and a public matter....
I dont explain it.....The Villasin Balintawak Grouping System....
GM. John Villasin said to me dont explain to much about this online and he had several reasons for that, so of course i will respect that....
Dear Jan, thanks for Answering but I think you got some of my Questions wrong.
First of all, I do not care if you do the research or not - its just what I would do if I were in your position (not for the Public but first of all for myself! Going Public with any claims I would not do unless I have undeniable Proof of what I am saying - but thats my point of view
About the Groupings, I did not ask you to explain the Villasin Grouping system. All I asked is "Whats your Point"?
Atty. Villasin "invented" the Villasin Grouping, Teofilo Velez the Teovels Grouping, Nick Elizar the Nickelstick Grouping, Bobby Taboada his Grouping etc etc - in the end (if you strip of the differences in Details) it all comes down to the same Besic Method of teaching... The Grouped Balintawak.
So I am asking again, whats your point?
"A Tree is a Tree and a River a River" (Zen quote)
Philipp "Mono" Wolf
Okay, thanks for your answer....
The only way to get real proof that GM. Ver Villasin is not what he says he is, is if i could get his Birth Certificate. Now how do you suggest i do that?
I dont think he would be very happy to show it to me if he is not what he says he is, do you?
I think he is the one who has to prove his claim, since GM. John Villasin (the son of GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin) says that GM. Ver Villasin is not the son of GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin. GM. John Villasin does prove his claim by showing a Birth Certificate, you can see it right here if you like: http://www.fma-arnis.dk/Villasin_Balintawak
as I said, thats my opinion. Its none of my business.
Just funny to read how you keep dropping and avoiding my question about your continued statement, that the Villasin Grouping is not the same as any others
I just take this as a agreeing "yes, I am learning the Villasin System and it is different to the other Grouping Systems in Detail - but basically we follow the same teaching Method"
So thanks for clearing this up for me
Keep it up!
Thanks for you answer...
Take it anyway you like, as i said i am still not going to explain about it online....
Secret grouping methods?
Well personally I don't care who is the son of who, it has no bearing on the individuals ability to teach Balintawak. As for the groupings I think we can all see from the posted videos that as Mono said, it is basically the same. One of the things I thought was stressed in the balintawak world was the sharing of knowledge to anyone who wants to learn, no holding back. It would seem to me that someone is trying to keep alive the stories of the old kungfu films with secret deadly techniques etc. Jan, do you really believe that if the Villasin system had secret techniques that you at your early stage in learning the system would be privy to it? Maybe by continueing to post trainig vids it will encourage the rest of us to download them, slow them down and discover the Villasin secrets? Anyways keep on training and just try to keep learning and improving; the same as the rest of us. Regards.
Funny your quetions lead me to a few other questions:
1. Do you really think you well be able to learn a Martial Arts from youtube only?
2. Do you really think we would upload everything we do and so you can use it?
That you keep trying to guess where i am in the Villasin Balintawak system without knowing our style, just tells me that you either:
A) Are trying to provoke me or/and
B) Shows how little you do know about our style (Villasin Balintawak)...
I think it might be a mix of A and B...
I agree, just like all your background, certificates or black belts dont tell anything about your ability to teach Balintawak.....
Jan, I did not say that you could learn martial arts from watching youtube, I simply said that if we were really convinced that we were missing something vital then maybe just maybe I or anyone else could download the vids and dissect them to see if I can pick up a trick or two. Now don't take this the wrong way but simply looking at the way you move during the execution of technique on the vids shows that you are not yet in an advanced state of play. I am sure that you will agree that there is a long way to go in knowledge and experience, after all it can't all be learnt overnight.
I am not trying to provoke anyone here, simply giving an opinion as you yourself are doing. Myself, I have been training balintawak since 2006. Each year I visit Cebu for a period of training either with Grandmaster Elizar (Nickelstick) or Master Wilson (Soncen) (Teovels ) so I have seen a LITTLE of both Nickelstick and Teovels styles.
I currently hold the advanced certificate from GM Nick Elizar and teach a little here in the UK. Feel free to look me up complete with vid clips on my site http://trutheskrimagroup.110mb.com/ I do not claim to be an expert or master and I hold no belts, indeed the styles I have trained in (and I believe most of the balintawak styles) have no belt ranking system. The student becomes the teacher and the teacher becomes the student, plus I know I have an awful lot left to learn.
I know what you are trying to say, but as far as i know the only one who can tell me where i am within the Villasin Balintawak style is GM. John Villasin....
The point is unless you are instructor within our style (Villasin Balintawak), you should not act like if you are one......You dont even know our style (Villasin Balintawak), so telling me or anyone in our style (Villasin Balintawak), where they are at is just a act of rudeness (even if you say its not)....
I never told you or any of your students, where they are within their/your style since i am not a instructor within their style so it would be wrong of me doing so.....
Just like you are not a instructor within our style Villasin Balintawak and dont know our style, which makes it wrong of you telling me or anyone from our style, where they are at within our system....
Yes, i know who you are, GM Nick Elizar talked about you sometimes....
Well, of course that's a slightly different matter! But I don't know that Brandon Lee was the best at JKD, nor Ed Parker Jr. the best at American Kenpo.
We took our Danish foreign exchange student with us to a play yesterday and in walked a contingent of Englishmen on holiday to sit right behind us. I live in a tiny town in Nowhere, Indiana and have Europeans around me everywhere!
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