Sinawali System?

Discussion in 'Misc. Stick Arts' started by arnisador, Oct 31, 2005.

  1. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I know that some things that I think of as just drills or techniques in Modern Arnis, like sinawalis and ocho ocho, were actually whole systems from which just a little has been taken. What else is in the Sinawali system besides what I'd think of as sinawalis? Is it entirely a double-stick system? I fear that I have a terribly simplistic view of the system based on the handful of sinawali drills I practice!
  2. sames

    sames New Member

    Check out a book called 'Complete Sinawali' by Rey Galang. It has in it something it calls the Central Form of Sinawali... its a long patern that includes several various sinawali (figure-eight, heaven and earth, redonda, etc...). One flows intothe next until you do the whole set. The book has some other good stuff in it as well.

  3. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I've seen this book before, I think...I'll take a look.

    It sounds like it is a double-stick system as one might expect, then?
  4. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    Hey Arnisador,

    Definately check out this book it is a good one to
    have in your library! I have referenced it many a
    time over the last several years!

    Brian R. VanCise
  5. Black Grass

    Black Grass Junior Member

    Another book by Master Rey Galang that will give you insight to the Siniwali system is Classic ARNIS - The Legacy of Placido Yambao, Yambao espada y daga style is based on Siniwali.

    The sinawali system is not simply a double stick system, but also contains stick and dagger, knife, staff and empty hands.

    The Bakbakan Siniwali empty hands of that Master Rey teaches at time have a similar look to Silat.

    aka Black Grass
  6. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Found it at Borders tonight! Interesting. (I haven't read it yet, only flipped through it.) From the subtitle through all the pictures, they do seem to make it a double-stick art.

    I haven't seen Classic Arnis around yet.
  7. Buwaya

    Buwaya Senior Member

    Hi Black Grass,
    Where did Master Galang's Siniwali come from? Did he learn it from a specific person or system?
  8. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    Sinawali is recognized as a double WEAPONRY system not limited to double stick. The reason for the common misconception is because a lot of the double-stick techniques/patterns were being referred to as Sinawali (meaning to weave). Master Galang is Pampangueno where the art apparently has it's roots. I forgot who his mentor was but believe his great uncle was Placido Yambao's compadre. One of the greatest components of Sinawali is the use of the sword & scabbard. Bakbakan's website has an article on the origin.

    John G. Jacobo
  9. Buwaya

    Buwaya Senior Member

    Perhaps Doc Lengson?

    Placido Yambao was a Kapampangan?
  10. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    Doc Lengson was Topher Ricketts Karate instructor.

    Yes, as I understand it Placido Yambao is originally from Pampanga. Master Galang's instructor was GM Carrungay (sp?)

    John J
  11. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    In Modern Arnis, and I imagine other systems with Siniwalis, there are names for specific patterns: Double, Single, Heavens,....

    Was there a group of FMA's that could be categorized as "Siniwali Arts" that would be "The Single Siniwali System" and such?

    Or, was it more like "Siniwali" as a system that introduced various patterns with applications for each?
  12. Buwaya

    Buwaya Senior Member

    Thanks John.
  13. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    While this is true, my comments were also in reference to sinawali being taught as merely some double-stick routines rather than emphasizing the principles of coordinated weaving and the development of ambidexterity. All essential attributes that enhance the practitioners understanding to not only utilize 2 weapons in a flowing pattern but also the use of 2 weapons independent of each other.

    Not sure but I am fairly certain there are some lesser known systems in the PI that would be categorized as such. I consider classical methods like sword & scabbard and even espada y daga as having the uniqueness to being a system of it's own rather than taught as sub-system/somponent. The shield & spear techhniques of GM Estalilla's Kabaroan system is also very unique.

    John J
  14. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    I agree John, for after learning the classic entries into a Sinawali, then try entering in off the left side, and then also from somewhere in the middle.

    This is just an example of what your have already stated.

    Thanks for the good points.
  15. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    Not sure if they were taught to be used this way before, but I see siniwali's as foundation movements that teach continuous motion.

    That motion could be applied defensively. We use to refer to this as a 'stick wave' or energy pattern that would divert attacks into a certain direction. Once you knew could successfully divert the attack, you could also what the practical counters should be based on the opponents reaction.

    Offensively, it works as a bait game. Use the first motions to force an opponent into a certain set of defensive/counter attack responses and they expose vital areas. Based on experience, you will be able to 'pick your shots' so to speak.

    A reasonable analogy would be set piece combat (Napoleonic/PHalanx...) versus Maneuver Warfare (Cavalry tactics, Tank warfare, Light infantry tactics..). Set Piece would be more like classic Karate block and counter punch (in its most basic applications) and FMA/Siniwali would be more like Maneuver Warfare. Both can be effective, but require different training and skill emphasis.
  16. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    I agree but that is just one aspect. Using the example of double-stick, sinawali is not only about being able to throw a bunch of fluid patterns that pretty much loses it's effectiveness and power a quarter of the way through. It is also the ability to use each weapon independently and effectively. I refer to it as the single "stick of double-stick".

    If you look at the upward fig. 8 what we call salok-saboy, what is the focus on the initial movement? The lead weapon is used to parry the oncoming attack while the rear counters underneath. The parry is the most important movement while the rest is a follow-up. Without the initial parry you are simply striking. The same parry is done in single-stick with the counter occupying the line of attack.

  17. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

  18. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    This is exactly what I said in my second paragraph. The primary or independent applications some which are very subtle is the essence of sinawali. Without knowing how to use them, all the rest of the movements are useless because the follow up strikes rely on it.

    While body mechanics is essential for power, it is not enough to maintain it. The power in each of the strikes will diminish significantly just like a boxer throwing combinations. Your hands will be moving too fast to start at the intial chambering, pivot, points etc. to deliver the same power consistently. Possibly, in the "patty cake" version but not when fighting double-stick. Please understand that I am not dwelling on just power because there are plenty of movements that won't require it within the patterns.

    Yes, the rudimentary development in understanding the concepts of base patterns, mechanics, power, speed etc. are essential.

    John J
  19. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    Here I think we go in different directions.

    I think that body mechanics will create the balance of power/fluidity so that there is 'enough' power behind each individual technique when you are applying it in combination. Consider how much power would really be needed to use an edged weapon (sword or knife) to cause dysfunction in a limb or vital area. Of course there won't be as much power behind the strike compared to isolating that strike and focusing all the power into it. When I talk about balancing the power/fluidity elements, it seems to be the same idea that you referred to when you talked about using less for some parts of the pattern and devoting more for others when applying it. Finding that balance - especially in motion and under pressure is definitely higher level skill expression.

    When boxers throw combos (and FMA'ers or anyone for that matter), it is with the intent to use the entire combo for a purpose. Same with Siniwalis. Not every strike should be applied with 'maximum' power generation IMO. Jabs could be used to set up 'power shots' in a combo and might not be thrown with 'max power generation' because it is not the main effort of the multi-prong attack.

    Upper cuts could be used to finish after using a hook to draw the opponent's hands up to his head. The Hooks to the head would not necessarily get loaded up the way that the Upper cut would.

    Balancing power/fluidity, when I am referring to it, is managing your energy resources. You won't have as much to drive into the main effort if you divert too much into the set ups or the baits.

    Agreed the "Patty Cake" versions are meant to be used like labs. Work on fundamental movements under a relaxed setting so that you can maximize your technical focus. Then, you throw them into the grinder so they have to find that balance of power/fluidity in a tactical setting.

    When I was asking about 'checking strikes' or checking hand applications, would those be what you consider 'non power' movements within the patterns?

    I like your emphasis on the tactical/purposes of the patterns. I also like the way you focus on breaking applications out to keep people thinking and observing.
  20. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    You are correct. I understand the strategies embedded in combinations and should have clarified. I was speaking more in general of strikes or punches following in rapid succession where power deteriorates.

    I missed your reference of "checking strikes or hand applications"? However, in an effort to address them separately...a subtle movement within a sinawali pattern could be easily described as a cross body parry (sometimes called a wing block) against a thrust. Simultaneously, you would counter with a diagonal strike. Assuming you are in a right lead this is an example of an independent application. On the same token, it is the starting point of redonda (whirlwind) or 3 circular strikes. The intial parry and counter is the the (1) count while the (2) & (3) are the follow- ups. I often see practitioners start the redondas from a dead chambered position i.e. right hand chambered over shoulder, left hand under armpit

    It is surprising how so many do not actually know how they got to that position. This is why I stress the importance of understanding the single stick of double-stick. Sounds like a great title for my next video, huh? [​IMG]

    Hand applications or bantay-kamay would be void due to the utilization of 2 weapons. However, as most of us know sinawali training is the most aggressive tool for developing the bantay-kamay for striking, checking etc. And if anything will enhance other 2 weapon combination i.e. espada y daga

    John J

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