Should Modern Arnis be Preserved, or Evolved?

Discussion in 'Modern Arnis' started by arnisador, Nov 26, 2005.

  1. Boar Man

    Boar Man New Member

    I saw this thread a while back and wanted to respond to it just took me a while to do it, I hope people might still want to comment on it.

    To be honest I believe it needs to be preserved, and I know it will continue to evolve as well, as the students from the last generation get exposed to teachers of the older generations.

    Students like myself who were exposed and studied Modern arnis in the Mid to late 90's saw and learned a diferent Modern Arnis than the students in the 80's to 90's here in the states. Likewise i think the students in the 60's-70's in the Philippines learned a different Modern Arnis to what we learned even more removed. So I believe that as we as students of Modern Arnis seek out instruction from these other instructors our understanding of the art will grow. As we grow we make new and different connections within the art and we evolve (grow) in our art beyond what we might have learned from GM Remy. Yet it is still Modern Arnis.

    When GM Remy was alive he exposed all of us to different material each year at his camps and we continued to grow in skill and in knowledge. But when he died (suddenly) it forced us as student and instructors to now really look at and examine what he taught us and it forced growth within us and within his organizations as well.

    In 2002 I went to the Winter camp in TX that featured the Masters of Tapi Tapi (the MoTTs). Now I saw basically the same material that I had seen with GM remy for the past several years but since they were teaching it was really explained much better. Granted they were not as spectacular as GM Remy but they did have a good understanding of the system and the priciples involved and I got a lot out of it. Same with seeing Dan Anderson, Dieter, Kelly Worden, Dr. Remy Jr., Bambit Dulay, and others. While they were all teaching Modern Arnis they all taught differently and showed different aspects of the art. And that forces growth but the art is still preserved.
  2. Boar Man

    Boar Man New Member

    Now evolution in the sense that I add or take away things from Modern Arnis and mix it with other things I believe is good but yet I think it can determental to the art.

    I agree that on a personnel level if I want to take this or that and work on it for my own personnel growth that's great. But in teaching and passing it on as Modern Arnis than I think you do a disservice to yourself and the art.

    For an example of Evolution, I'll use Hock Hochheim. Hock trained with both GM Remy, GM Ernesto and some in JKDC. But the main influences were GM Remy and GM Ernesto. So back in early 94 when I hooked up with him his program was based on Presas Arnis (a combination of both Remy's and Ernesto's systems). Then as he introduced more of his material from other sources it started to shift to Combat Arnis and then it went to his SDMS and later morphed into part of his Achipeligo Combatives program and later still into the CQC. But while it was going through these changes he kept some of his old material but it evolved into including material from his MP days, his LEO, other stick and knife systems etc. etc. then into long gun and pistol. It no longer resembles anything to do with GM Remy or GM Ernesto's systems.

    Now Hock from the begining made no bones about it that the individual was more important than the system and he wasn't a historian or a preservationist and he had no interest in not adding what he thought best. Or what he thought the public the people paying to see him wanted or what they needed. This is true evolution.

    Semi evolution is a sense what I have done where while I have documented as best I could GM Remy's and Ernesto's (Hock's, Inosanto's, Hartsell's and anyone I've ever seen etc. etc.) systems or what they taught me. So when I began teaching I laid out a combination of the two systems and included much of the drills that Hock had us do in the old days that fit well within those systems and teach that material. And if needed I could teach what GM Remy taught me, what GM Ernesto taught me, or Hock or anyone. But I give credit where credit is due as in this is from Remy or Ernesto or Hock.

    Preservation is to keep the art as it practiced when the founder was alive. Again take Modern Arnis, I could choose to preserve Modern Arnis and only teach the drill progressions, the techniques, in the way and manner in which I saw Remy perform them. And if I were to teach a Modern Arnis program than that is what I would do. If I were to say that I was teaching Modern Arnis again this is what I would do. I would not teach Guro Dan Inosanto's JKC kali mix and add it to a puesdo Modern Anris curriculmn and call it Modern Arnis just because a slight majority of what I teach would be Modern Arnis, or because I fell out of favor with Guro dan and fell in favor with GM Remy.

    Submitted with respect
  3. Palusut

    Palusut -== Banned ==-

    I believe as well that Modern Arnis needs to be preserved as well as progression made to it as well.
  4. Alakd'an

    Alakd'an New Member

    Preserve or evolve?

    This is an excellent question and one that has many answers. I for one have had the honor of being in several seminars and a few camps of GM Remy Presas.
    My first experience was in the spring of 1980 in Petoskey Michigan where the Professor gave a weekend seminar on Modern Arnis. I personally never heard of Filipino Martial Arts up to that time, and there was no one teaching Modern Arnis anywhere that I knew of. (Especially in Northern Michigan)
    But what I saw in 1980 was definately not the same as what I saw in 1993. I believe that Modern Arnis has to evlove just as it evolved with the Professor. You definately see a different Modern Arnis in the Phillipines than you do in the U.S.
    Each person training eventually has their unique perspective and their own talents that bring out certain aspects of Modern Arnis they may emphasize over other aspects. I don't believe there is a right or wrong approach to this question.
    There are some core aspects of the Professors Art that make it recognizable as Modern Arnis to the observer. But, I believe that we can find "the art within your art" and "make it your own" within the general concepts of Modern Arnis. This is just my 2 cents to a very interesting question.
    Ben Harrison
  5. Rocky

    Rocky New Member

    This make know sence to me ! How can something be preserved when it's very nature is to evolve??? It is not called Traditional Arnis, it is Called Modern, so that which was taught 2 years ago can not be "Modern" unless it evolves.

    From the "Book of Rock" .......He who makes Evolution his Tradition is a student wtih no limitations!!

  6. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    This does make sense! Still, with no single person at the top of Modern Arnis any more, it also means that in a generation or two everyone's Modern Arnis could be quite different. That may be for the best for the individual practitioner, but I lament the loss of a sense of community.
  7. Rocky

    Rocky New Member

    Well the way I look at it is, the very nature of Modern Arnis and the way Professor taught it makes it an art that doesn't need a top man. In fact their are a number of top men, each teaching their art of Modern Arnis as given to them by Professor and developed by them personally.

    I think you just have to look at the various heads of MA, if you Like Master Andersons, or Master Hartman, or Master Wards, or any one of the other heads of MA, then that is who you go with, and eventually you may find that you end up training a little bit with all of us.

  8. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

    Good to see you here Rocky!
  9. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    As an instructor, evolution is a necessity. And if you are dedicated it is a natural tendency. No matter what system you promote, you must always seek to improve on it whether it is in regards to a teaching approach, training methodology or whatever. However, the core principles must remain in tact for they are what drives all the techniques. Additionally there must remain some sort of integrity. Unfortunately integrity in many organizations is the first to go.

    The loss in the community or intertribal bickering is useless and usually a result of one's selfishness or ego. This poor character and attitude trickles down to those who are blindly loyal to that particular individual. This is seen everywhere and probably won't change.

  10. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    Preserve the name and the memory of the late GM Presas, but you as an individual owe it to your self to evolve both your art and yourself.

    You can stick to the core syllabus and still evolve, use your syllabus as a skelleton if you like but just because it say's in the syllabus you must do this technique or that technique does not mean you have to look exactely as your instructor does when applying the technique, this for the individual is difficult. We are all different both in our approach and in how we apply things and I am sure the late GM Remy would have been the first to tell you all that. After all was it not the late GM Remy who used to always say "It's all the same".

    In other words, if it works it's right, if it's does not work it's wrong.

    Best regards

  11. Rocky

    Rocky New Member

    Hey Tim,

    Yeah I haven't log in in probably over a year in fact I had to get a new Pasword thingy.

  12. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    The Concepts
    The Techinques
    The Basics

    Grow and evolve by using the Basics and Concepts and Techniques in new places as new circumstances arise.
  13. Rocky

    Rocky New Member

    OK Tim now I am confused!!!! I thought this was the Martial talk site, its no wonder my password didn't work.....DAH!!!!! I guess maybe I did take one to many shots to the head!!!

  14. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    We're affiliated with MartialTalk, but a separate registration is needed!

    -FMATalk Admin
  15. sneha

    sneha -== Banned ==-

    yeah y not,,,,,,,,,He must be preserved and involved
  16. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

  17. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Nothing wrong with a little well-intended thread necromancy, but this was just a spammer!

    -FMAT Admin

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