Short range power.

Discussion in 'General' started by geezer, Aug 28, 2008.

  1. geezer

    geezer Member

    In the two FMAs I've been training, Latosa Concepts and DTE, both emphasize not withdrawing your weapon way back to generate power. Instead, with a stick for example, they work on generating explosive power moving right out of you normal guard or chamber position. I've noticed a lot of other systems really winding up to use body torque, but in so doing, telegraph their intentions. Do you withdraw your stick and wind up to get power, or do you try to explode directly forward from your guard into an attack?
     
  2. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Both. I'll wind up to train a larger body mechanic, but train my body mechanic progressively smaller to make it as least telegraphic as possible.

    Best,

    Steve
     
  3. geezer

    geezer Member

    I get the feeling, that to some degree the difference is situational, ie. with something heavy, it is harder to generate power without more of a wind-up. With a knife, there is no need for that kind of power generation, and the movements are very tight and fast.

    On the other hand, I attended one stick workshop where the instructor repeatedly corrected my movements, telling me to draw all the way back, and chamber my stick behind me. I tried to comply, but it went against the instincts of my training, making me feel awkward and exposed. It just seems more efficient to work on generating short range power so you can strike directly from whatever position you are in and not have to withdraw your energy. The catch is that this kind of power is hard to develop...at least for me!
     
  4. wes tasker

    wes tasker New Member

    Steve makes an excellent point. When Tuhon Bill McGrath teaches strikes to beginners it's always with a lot of wind up and torque. Then he says that you should make the mechanics smaller and smaller until you can generate 3 times the power in a 3rd of the space... Everyone has to start somewhere and by introducing sound, albeit large, mechanics at first, the practitioner has a foundation from which they can start to get smaller and smaller with their movements and still maintain power.

    Just hitting 1's and 2's with Tuhon Bill is enough to know there's something to the process. He looks like he's barely moving and meanwhile most people I know are giving it all they have not to have their own stick bounce back into their face.....

    -wes
     
  5. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    Proper body mechanics can generate body torque/power without winding up.

    I chamber the stick to my shoulder but I do not raise my arm over my shoulder.

    I do not explode forward. I use torsional striking so form the side the strike is coming from allows one to "pop" their hips and generate power/torque/energy for the strike.
     
  6. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Within Bahad there is a body box element, meaning our weaponry remains tight to the body (shoulder width, arm length forward)..imagine that box from top to bottom. The generation of power comes from our ability to use the serrada/abierta method coupled with the single carerra footwork. This definitely keeps us tight while in the corto or what I deem the extreme corto range. The same method of power generation can be employed at medio as well as largo. The only difference being the footwork that will be employed at said ranges, i.e. float, lutang, and the ability to lengthen the strikes due to plausible range. I have my people generating extreme power not only from the various chamber points but also from weaponry extension points out of the praksyon strike using rolling energy and off course the aforementioned methods and footwork.
     
  7. gold_chapter

    gold_chapter Balintawak Eskrima

    Close Quarters w/ a Stick

    Usually you wind up only for the killing blow, Otherwise it's all short, non-telegraphic hits that still maim (or kill)

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  8. pguinto

    pguinto New Member

    you also have to consider the classical vs the combative form. it seems to me the instructor repeatedly made corrections to your classical form.

    however, you were in a workshop with an instructor that probably isnt your regular instructor. so you have to consider that sometimes instructors have to employ generic (basic) forms of movement that apply across the whole class which is probably comprised of people with varying degrees of experience; ie they usually fall back to the classical forms. it is from the classical form that the combative form blooms. like in tai chi, working on perfecting a solid base of the classical will strengthen and reinforce solidness of the combative form. also consider the instructor probably understands that it is up to the individual to later put thought into the form and its application to the myriad intracacies of his/her art. the more advanced your thought process, experience, understanding of biomechanics, and even physics, the richer the form becomes...
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2008
  9. geezer

    geezer Member

    Correct on both assertions... I was working with an instructor of a different style, and as the class was diverse. The approach was, by necessity, very generic. Also, my own instructors do stress more of a "combat" than "classical" approach... although in some systems I've seen, what they call "classical" seems pretty effective for combat to me. Speaking of which, I believe you are a Serrada practitioner? I always thought of Serrada as being very compact and efficient, often generating significant power in a very small space. Is that so?
     
  10. KaliGman

    KaliGman Professional Man at Arms

    Power generation

    We use many methods of generating power in strikes in Albo Kali Silat. We strike with both "short" distance attacks with no windup and "long" attacks with a significant "chamber." We do not use merely torque/hip turn, but often use hip drop/obtique movements, whip, and other power generation methods. Due to the fact that, when training blade, we recognize that we will probably be using a short fixed blade or folding knife if we have to use a blade "for real" we develop power in our cuts as well, in order to maximize the ability of our shorter, smaller blades.

    Here is a basic primer on "draw cutting" with a small blade that I filmed and which demonstrates some close range power generation through "whip" or letting your arm rotate in three dimensions and with the wrist, elbow, and shoulder all rotating freely. I think it fits in nicely with this topic.

    http://www.albokalisilat.org/cutting.html
     
  11. pguinto

    pguinto New Member

    Im pretty sure many serrada players would agree. However we all know that "compactness, effeciency, and generating significant power in a very small space" is a part of all the FMAs. It's an important part of playing within the corto range despite one's style.

    For the record, i am currently focusing on eskrima instruction under the TCE banner which includes the Giron Larga Mano system, the Sarmiento Cadena system, and the Cabales Eskrima system (including it's Serrada style/subsystem); ie it pretty much encompasses all aspects of the FMAs. In my college days before GGM Cabales' passing, beginning instruction focused on the corto range and hence my reply is based upon what i remembered about the serrada aspect of eskrima.

    I was once told GGM Cabales began one's instruction in the corto range, practicing in the medio range, then expanding out to the larga range. If I am wrong, i apologize. A practitioner within the Cabales Serrada organization and its associates may have a more official answer.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2008
  12. chubbybutdangerous

    chubbybutdangerous CHUBBY MEMBER

    :bow:Greetings. I personally train to develop as much explosive power as possible in as small a movement as possible. One reason for this is that I much prefer having my weapons in front of me between me and my opponent. Another reason is that I know in "real time" my movements have a tendency to get a little wider. So I'm very strict with our "tight" form. Otherwise my movments would get real wide.
    Like so many others I too generate my power starting from the ground up using torque at the hips continuing to my shoulders and finally to my hands/wrists. But unlike some people I've trained with it seems that I explode with more forward energy as compared to some others who seem to have there energy go off a little more sideways when striking especially with sticks. Don't get me wrong! I am not necessarily having my body explode forward.. I said my energy is directed forward. Even if I'm "retreating", I step to the rear with my energy still focused towards my opponent. It doesn't matter what direction I'm moving in or what angle of attack I'm using, my energy is still going forward. Some may not completely understand what I'm saying, but that's how I do things.. it's how my instructor taught me. And I can honestly say I hit harder now in my mid 40's that when I was in my 20's. These are also the same principles my instructor teaches to our boxers and mma fighters (with very good results).
    Hey Geezer, maybe you and I should spend more training time on this. Besides you're smarter than I am, and might be able to explain what I'm trying to say better than I can.
    :kicknuts:
    Respectfully Submitted,
    Chubby
     
  13. AZEskrimador

    AZEskrimador In All You Do... Be You!

    The more power you can generate in the least time the better, right? As well, the more power you can generate using the least energy could also be a plus.
    I definitely believe in the generation of power but I, for one, wanna do it using as little energy as I can. Never know when you're gonna need that saved energy, eh?
    If you can generate explosive power using just the parts of your body necessary in a sort or chain of kinetic energy directed into your opponent, there's no need to waist energy moving unnecessary parts.
    This ideology works for me, especially since I'm not 19 any more and can think of better things to do with my extra energy.

    Train Well Guys & Gals
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2009
  14. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    In Rapid Arnis we lean more towards generating power with the least amount of advertising, e.g. using body torque and good mechanics saving the wind up shot for the finishing blow. I have found over the years both in tournament and out of tournament that those people that tend to wind up their shots advertise their shots more so than those who use good body mechanics, also they tend to leave a large portion of themselvs open for quick repeated watik/snapping shots that can overwhelm them or at the very least put them on the defensive giving you more time to apply a good wind up finishing blow.

    I find the bigger the wind up,, the more the advert and the more distance and time you need to apply the shot, I am all for hitting with a series of short sharp shots to set up the big shot, bit like using your artillery before sending in the ground troops.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  15. Rapier

    Rapier RHC

    In Derobio GGM Pedoy used to say that the power is generated thru your 12 joints angkles,knees,hips, shoulders,elbows and wrists all used togther in harmony.
    Dan Medina
     
  16. Ryno

    Ryno New Member

    The closer that I move in, the more I tend to shorten up my movement. Getting power at close range is about creating enough space that you don't jam yourself up, and being sure to activate your core muscles. If you don't have space, you'll be jammed. If you don't activate your core muscles, you are just arm punching with a stick.

    You can still get good power by abbreviating your chamber if you can engage with your core muscles. Twist at the hips, moving forward, dropping your weight, etc. are various ways to do this. You will not get good power by simply moving your hand forward after it is already somewhat extended. This is a slap or an arm-punch at best. Arm-only is bad for almost all types of striking.

    The weapons used will play a factor in this of course. If you've got a heavy stick or a baseball bat, you need more torque to get the thing accelerated. You will need a more aggressive chamber. But with a knife or blade, you really need almost none to do damage. A quick redirection of the edge or tip is fine for doing damage.
     
  17. kuntawista

    kuntawista New Member

    Short strikes still pack some power; just look at Bruce Lee's idea behind the ˝one-inch punch.˝ I use both, depending on the situation. I prefer to ˝explode˝ using short movements to generate power. The short movements may not be as powerful as a strike in which you wind up your body to deliver the strike, but they take less time.

    The way I see it is if you can pull off 2 or 3 (or more) short-strikes in the time it would take you to deliver a long, powerful, wound-up strike, the power generated from those shorter strikes (if added together) will equal if not surpass the power you could generate with one big strike. Also, the multiple strikes will psychologically disrupt your opponent's train-of-thought via sensory overload. Their mind has to catch up with what just happened as you continue joyously beating them repeatedly. This method can also give you the opportunity/opening for that long-wound-up strike, if you choose to employ it. Also, these shorter strikes allow you to keep covering your vulnerable areas. One strike feeds the next.

    But if you have the time and a good opening, why not use a wounded-up strike that packs some power?

     
  18. Killbot

    Killbot Sereeus Biznus

    At close range, we usually switch to punches, knees, punyo strikes and clinches/grapples. If we're at "sort of close range" we tend to use abinico type wrist powered strikes with body movement...not the wind up body movement type, but the type where shifting is generating the power through the body to the stick.

    but generally speaking we do tend to do less stick swinging up close. Its just impractical in my opinion. You can do some goofy angle shots, or move out just to get the stick moving, but I find once you're that close, using the stick is a bit impractical. You're not getting the momentum or velocity you normally can, especially compared to the other options you have at that range (knees, punches, etc). That range limits the potential of the stick, is I guess what I'm trying to say.

    Maybe I'm just missing something or visiualizing combatants too close together.
     
  19. AZEskrimador

    AZEskrimador In All You Do... Be You!


    Yes, being too close can deffinitly limit your options, as far as, using the extended lenth of your stick. However, the butt can be very useful and can need sugnificantly less torque to do decent damage.

    Then, of course, there's always the option to use the leveage of the stick for choking, locking or traping. Doesn't really have anything to do with power but just sayin'.
     
  20. Rapier

    Rapier RHC

    Using short range power can come from all areas, including the wrist. I have been in 2 situations in where I demonstrated the power of the wrist. One was In Albuquerque N.M. at Hawk Enterprises LTD. A body for hire. They were selling a stick Rattan with a special coating that they claimed was indistructable that they were selling to law enforcement aganecies. I aksed them to hold one up and let me hit it with a watik and to there amazement I snapped there stick in half with just the power of the wrist. The second time was at a martail art retail store in V.A. that had a money back gaurantee if thier sticks broke and again I was able to duplicate this. Of course the sticks had no skin on them and that makes it easier. And of course don't forget to use body mechanics.
     

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