Sayoc and Pekiti- as they are now.

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by selfcritical, Apr 22, 2008.

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  1. Brock

    Brock Asha'man

    In Ron's defense he's not a Sayoc student, so he would have no reason to use Pamana Tuhon Sayoc's title, while he is a Pekiti student, so he'd use Grand Tuhon Gaje's title. As far as Mr. Inosanto goes, which would you prefer he uses, Guru, Guro, Sensei, or any of variations, or other titles he's accumulated over the years. Anyway you go I'm sure he doesn't care. He's gonna' keep training and doing what he does regardless of what you call him, or wether or not he's got a title in it. Could we get over all the nit picking and let guys like Ron and Rafael (granted he kinda' started all of it, by perceiving offense when none was intended, but I can see where he'd be a bit defensive considering some of the posts regarding Pekiti vs Sayoc up to this poin) Honestly the majority of Pekiti guys I've run into are good guys. I can say the same of the Sayoc students. I got to train with Pamana Tuhon Sayoc for about an hour once at an event in Philly when he shared a seminar with Grandmaster Max Pallen and in that time got the impression that he was a decient person and a good instructor. As of yet I haven't gotten to meet or train with Grand Tuhon Gaje, so I can't really say anything about him. I hate to judge anyone just by their posts on an internet forum.
  2. Stone

    Stone New Member

    Brock, I understand what your saying, and it's not my intention to be nit-picky. I'm sure Ron didn't mean it this way, but many times when people use first names in such conversations, it's really a ploy to undercut someones authority,or demonstrate a familairity with a person that simply isn't there. Your not going to hear me call GT Gaje,"Leo", nor will you hear me refer to Manong Inosanto as, "Danny". It's simply bad form, in IMHO. As for PTK guys being cool, you'll get no argument from me there. Pekiti was my first FMA, and my experience with it was fantastic.

    As for the quotes I posted , those are straight from GT Gaje's own blog/forum. Are you saying we shouldn't pay attention to what GT writes?
  3. Entropy

    Entropy New Member

    Experience dictates opinions. There are many individuals inside of the Atienza Organization that have LOTS of success with projectiles facing the mass.

    If you would like to learn a little bit more about some basic terminology within the Atienza System you can check it out here:

    We can talk till we are blue in the face, however much of the information won’t be internalized until you are able to experience it firsthand.

    Joshua Votaw
    Atienza Kali
  4. Entropy

    Entropy New Member


    It’s been good talking shop with you. You sound like a nice guy who definitely has a passion for Martial Arts. Perhaps I will see you around one of our training groups one time so we can meet and compare notes.

    Joshua Votaw
    Atienza Kali
  5. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    There was a time when the Filipino people did not achieve Tuhon level in the Philippines without proving that they deserved it. Hence the reason GT Leo G...if that is what you prefer I call him, is stating. He does speak out of anger in what he calls Filipino purity when there are others are mixing cultures. I personally feel there is nothing wrong with mixing as long as credit is given where credit is due. Guro/Sensei/Sifu/Pendekar/Kru Dan Inosanto ;) gives credit to each technique in where it comes from as he is teaching it. I do the same if I decide to blend. The people that piss off Grand Tuhon are the ones who do not give credit or mix and say it is pure.
    I also see nothing wrong with him sticking up for his family system. I do not get involved with family matters so I will not comment further but I will say, he does have the right to have the answer is yes, that is pride!

    As for Chris, I am not a close friend though we know each other. I call him Chris when I see him, he calls me Ron. I achieved master level in my Kuntao and two Senior Full Instructorships in JKD but you do not see me demanding to be called Punong Guro, or Tuhon or master. I do not expect anyone else to demand it from me either. However, I give respect to my elder teachers and call them their titles. What is the problem with that?

    I'll tell you one thing, I am sick of people thinking I am desrespecting Chris Sayoc. I like what he does and his dedication to his style, I like him as a person, I like his students...I know many of them. So stop jumping down my throat! I came on here to have a discussion of the PTK off-shoots...which I would think is a compliment due to the reputation of PTK is as an effective martial art.
  6. puntadas

    puntadas New Member

    mediocre minds

    Yeah Ron!

    I wouldn't worry our Chinese friends would say: "intermediate level of skill"
    they usually start making noise around then & as we all know - it's an empty vessel that makes loud noises.
    Last edited: May 6, 2008
  7. Brock

    Brock Asha'man

    Nope, I was just saying that I don't judge a person by forum post. There's too much room for personal interpretation. Just like things that are mis-spelled or titles that are not present could be taken slights. If I don't really know the person on the other end of the post it's difficult to understand where they're coming from.
  8. Combative Edge

    Combative Edge New Member

    Entropy, Got it.

    I don't know how many times throwing away there weapon in a REAL multiple attacker situation Atienza practitioners have gone through but they got real lucky I guess.
    Keeping your weapon would be the best idea.

    I looked at that link and I really don't understand any of it so I guess I will forget about it.

    I still believe there was way to much thought that went into that and it may work when sparring or training, but in reality there is no way your going to figure out which one of twelve type of attackers your facing.
    There are alot of names and acronyms used to differentiate your style from what is out there.

    I have done security work....In every situation I have been in I can tell you that you just react....You do not have time to analyze (to a certain degree).

  9. Dustin

    Dustin New Member

    To Entropy (in reference to post on 5/4/08),

    You state,

    "If Atienza comes from Pekiti, then how could it be worked out so much better for your orginal point (that Atienza comes from PTK) when they were one of the "best." This is what is so nice about convenience and perception....maybe no one will notice."

    This does not seem to be a valid objection to Tim's previous statements. Your point is that since Atienza comes from Pekiti, then it must not be crap and this is intended to catch Tim in a supposed confusion or inconsistency. That doesn't follow. It is possible that Atienza comes from Pekiti and could still be crap. For example, someone could learn something from someone else and fail to learn it correctly, practice it correctly, or misunderstand it. Hence it would be crap. So, it doesn't follow that since Atienza comes from Pekiti it must not be crap, the failure could be on the Atienza side, not the Pekiti side. Non-sequitur, something to consider. Just offering a possibility.

    You state,

    "Followed up with, a little of you and a little of me (look at that PTK and Atienza working together) - "I simply do not believe in any FMA system/style/instructor that promotes..." ...theories that are contrary to something so basic as evolution. If something cannot evolve it becomes extinct. Looks like Natural Selection is working again....sorry for ya."

    Evolution and natural selection are biological processes, not processes of human artifact. Ideally, organisms better adapted to their environment tend to survive and reproduce, but sometimes mutations occur. That is to say, not all changes are for the better. Of course, "evolve," "evolution," etc. have more than one sense and can be used outside of the context of biology. So, "evolve" could apply, but not "natural selection" or "extinction." I'm sure you didn't mean to use them in the senses they should be taken though, I guess. I also believe that "there is nothing new to develop, or improve, or innovate." The movments of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, as well as other FMAs, are the result of what is ideally suited to human anatomy and physiology and are "the ancient art of the modern times and living past." They might need to change if human anatomy and physiology somehow evolved to be drastically different than what it is. However, this is not the case.
  10. mabagani

    mabagani Pendato

    I found my travels through the BangsaMoro peaceful and friendly, too...I still stay in contact with a few scholars. Yes, its not a problem mingling among the natives in crowded marketplaces, mosques, schools and barangays, etc unarmed, lol.
    Re: battles on RP soil- The Philippine constitution forbids foreign troops from establishing bases in the Philippines and, by many interpretations, bars them from combat, so their role is supposed to be limited to infrastructure and support. Locals witness and claim otherwise, offensives on Jolo, Sulu and Mindanao have also caused civilian casualties and displacement among the population.
  11. knifeblade101

    knifeblade101 New Member

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  12. Entropy

    Entropy New Member

    Check out this link that has been up for a while:

    This is Tuhon Carl Atienza doing very basic projectile work (no team tactics, no mass attack or scenario based applications).

    Luck has nothing to do with making the tactical decision to deploy the blade as a projectile.

    There are many security professionals inside of the Atienza organization who are LEO’s, bouncers, FBI SWAT, SEALS…etc and they train to ensure their REACTIONS are the correct ones, its called conditioned responses. We analyze everything so we can evolve and learn from ours and others mistakes. Atienza is a feeder based system. Imagine…reacting the same way to a similar problem every time because you didn’t take the time to analyze what was done right/wrong the first time…crazy right!

    All this information is, is the summation of all the life lessons learned inside of combat from not just the Atienza brothers, but their father, the instructors, and everyone who brings their experience into the organization.

    We know one of your guys already inquired about Atienza and was concerned with the price. Next time we have an open class you are more than welcome to be our guest, for free, and come down to see what we do…no challenges, just friendly matches (it’s all just training) if you like. Send me a PM and I’ll send you the information.

    Joshua Votaw
    Atienza Kali
  13. Entropy

    Entropy New Member

  14. BayaniWarrior

    BayaniWarrior New Member

    What are you implying here, Dustin? Why act coy and conceal your actual responses behind the shield of biological principles?

    If you claim to understand the context in which Guro Josh is speaking in regards to the way he uses the word evolution (non-biological sense), natural selection, and extinction...and if you claim to understand that he meant it in the non-biological sense...then why dwell on it and continue to discuss Biology?

    In Logic, we would refer to your fallacious argument as an instance of Red Herring. Your explanation of evolution, natural selection, and extinction regarding Biological principles is irrelevant to the actual discussion at hand, which deals with PTK and the Sayoc/Atienza group to explain why Sayoc Kali and Atienza Kali are NOT PTK offshoots.

    Oh and by the way...I opened up my dictionary and read this:

    Evolution: a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state

    Extinction: the condition or fact of being extinguished.

    Natural Selection: a natural process that results in the survival and reproductive success of individuals or groups best adjusted to their environment and that leads to the perpetuation of genetic qualities best suited to that particular environment

    Oh, and here’s another word I looked up:

    Metaphor: a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them

    Looks like you missed the metaphor, there. ;-)

    I disagree. Again, the word "evolution" as Guro Josh is putting it does NOT refer to the Biological sense. He is referring to the evolution of FMA for today's world. We need to understand the context of FMAs throughout history, and that it is necessary to update traditional FMA material to the context of today's world. There is nothing wrong, or even new, about this. Filipinos have been evolving their art for hundreds, if not thousands, of years in order to adjust to the times. If you look at the history of FMA as well as the history of the Philippines, you will see that the methods of Filipino combat of one generation aren't exactly the same as the methods of the next generation. By evolution and change, they are not speaking necessarily of mere techniques, but the tactics and strategies that have to be adapted for today's world. By your rationale, since Lapu Lapu and I have the same physiology (2 arms, 2 legs, etc), then I should also be fighting with and carrying a Kampilan sword. The situations that surround the times define which methods should be used and which ones work. Physiology does impact the way humans can move, and as a result, fight. However, they are not the only factor when adapting combative methods to the modern times. It is necessary to evolve and adapt combative methods to suit the needs of people in today's world.

    Michael Pana
  15. Entropy

    Entropy New Member

    This is all a moot point and off topic (if you would like to discuss the quality of instruction or skill of practitioners within the Atienza Organization, start another thread) due to the following:

    A) Tim has already validated that PTK does not have:

    a. Force Anchor Tracking
    b. Force Anchor Initiation
    c. Fighter Types

    Which shows many concepts in the Atienza System do not stem from PTK. There have been people that have posted on this thread that have trained in both systems, stating that training methodologies are totally different. Also, from some of the other comments from PTK individuals it may be gleamed that the Atienza system utilizes projectiles and mass attack strategies in a totally different way than PTK (not that we heard any specifics as to the projectile or mass attack training that is done in PTK to begin with…still awaiting those questions to be answered…)

    B) Since we have determined that Concepts, Strategies and Tactics are different, next are the Techniques. We are waiting for documented evidence detailing the SPECIFIC techniques that come EXCLUSIVELY from PTK and no other influences that the Atienza system uses.

    C) If statements about Atienza being an offshoot of PTK are used there should be some evidence giving specific details to back this up.

    Joshua Votaw
    Atienza Kali
  16. Dustin

    Dustin New Member

    True, discussing the quality of instruction or skill of practitioners here might be off topic; however, I wasn't doing that. I was merely pointing out an error in your reasoning as you were trying to do with regard to Tim's statement. That is why I gave an example. Just an example. To point out a possibility.

    Given that this is a forum for discussion, we can't post something without expecting people to raise objections to the conclusions we draw or the reasoning we engage in.
  17. Gilla

    Gilla -== Banned ==-

    O.K. when i say something is based on something i do not mean to insult anyone . When we make a sword or a stew or anything we or i use the best ingredients. Tuhon Butch and Tuhon Chris used the best ingredients to produce a very fuctional art. The trial and error method dose not work well in R and D for blade work so they went to the best teachers at the time . One of them was Leo Gaje They studied with him because they thought he was the best at the time. The based there work on proven arts and then added or deleted according to personal taste. When you use the best to begin with it leads to a good product that's why when you create something you do on solid proven facts. Now because of politics or not wanting to admit it's not a 5 generation art by design they omit certain facts. The fact is AK does look like PTK, Sayoc will allway's have questions about it origins and i think that will always piss off it's practitioners or founders. But it all comes down to the fact that just like anything it is based on the work of those before us. All car's are based on the model t all dogs came from wolves and your arts are at least based on the work of a guy name Cornrado 100 years ago. Ed
  18. Black Grass

    Black Grass Junior Member

    Unless they are Ilocanos, because then they would use papait and bitter melon, and thats just wrong! Yuck! Vince aka Black Grass
  19. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Ehe ug pag-agulo ana hunong

    Pagkabuhi ug pagtugot buhi.....
  20. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    Joshua...I have Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje at my house right now. I am going to answer a few things here for you.

    Edgar Atienza studied with Grand Tuhon back in the 70's. From 75 to 80. Edgar Atienza wanted to learn and continue the Filipino culture here in the US with Grand Tuhon's help. His wife lorna Atienza can tell you this. Grand Tuhon said he participated in all PTK activities and made Guro level. He was teaching his kids who were mere lads at the time so they started off with PTK. Edgar Atienza, Bo Sayoc, Chris Sayoc and his sisters, John DeLeone (not Jun from Canada), Bill McGrath, Greg Alland, Tom Bisio, Eric Knaus, Akmed Bouuraca (AK), Frank Ortega, Warren Brown (I know these spelling are off and I do not wanna hear it) all were training around that time. Maybe the people that question this should ask them. They are still around though they have a low profile for the most part.

    Now, with 5 years of PTK under him and teaching his children, how is it that it that Atienza Kali would not be influenced or even an off shoot of PTK?

    I have trained in many Arnis, Eskroma, Kali myself...I see the content of the system consists of. How is it he would not see it. Regardless of it is the same style or not, it was influenced by PTK.

    Why would Grand Tuhon Lie...why do people feel it is a lie. Good martial art styles do not pop outa the air and appear...they have to have a history and come from someone and someone who knows his stuff. Question the history of the style you do to see whre it comes from. No? Its ok if there is a blend of others but never the less, there is a PTK influence!
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