Sayoc and Pekiti- as they are now.

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by selfcritical, Apr 22, 2008.

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  1. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    That's the point. Haller!?!?!
     
  2. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    You want to test your metal...come on down to Tejas and we will slip across into old Mexico down around Reynosa. Go due south for about 10 minutes and you will find more killing than a slaughterhouse. Drug Cartels, Dirty Federalis all trying to be contained by crooked Mexican Army that is deep in the pockets of every slimey politician in Mexico. Those sum bitches are whacking people wholesale...men, woman and children and that is without mentioning the Juaristas. It is common as curry to see running gun battles on a daily basis...not in the bush but in the streets. The bandidos try to get their mules to bring the folks across packing all sorts of goodies for the blood stream...smack, yayo, weapons etc...hence the vigilante good old boy red neck sumbitches waiting on this side. You wanna talk about an assault vehicle. Cross on these rubes land and see how quick a Chevy pick up loaded down with good ol boys decends on your ass all packing automatic ar-15's half twisted on Wild Turkey and spouting the good book as if they are some kind of crusader. Now I don't know about you folks but I have been to the PI and I am heading back again this fall, I found where I was at pretty damn cool...No I didn't make it way down south to play RAMBO (I did that many moons ago with Uncle Sams Green Machine) so there ain't a goddamn thing for me to prove. I did however get close, Camotes and Leyete and what I found was some pretty good folks that were cool as the other side of the pillow. Summing it up, as Rooster Cogburn once said "If your looking for trouble it will find you, if not leave it alone"....and like I said a good dust up is waiting for all you fellas who wanna test their sack....make ur way to Texas,,,head 77 due south...cross at Reynosa and have at it. Adios toughguys!
     
  3. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    I'll leave it to those with more experience in Pekiti to complete an answer to this one. As a start however, I believe that the Seguidas Jab can be used both as an entry and as a follow-up; the use of lateral footwork also means that it can be deployed whenever there is contact between two weapons.

    With respect to "what happens if it fails?": doesn't every "failed technique" turn into a redirect? The issue is: to what extent does it fail? Does it elicit a response, at least?

    Best,

    Steve
     
  4. Entropy

    Entropy New Member

    So Tim, which is it:

    "One thing is for certain, and that is the Sayoc’s and the Atienza’s will always have to defend their claims on the true origins of their styles (they are not systems) and their relationship to Pekiti-Tirsia and Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje."

    implying of course that we come from Pekiti...as has been stated and implied on other threads within this forum and others by multiple PTK individuals over the years...

    or is it this

    "Because the best have always, and continue, to come to Grand Tuhon Gaje to further their skills and training. And that includes the Sayocs, Atienzas, and PG Sulite among many, many others."

    taken from another thread you posted on...I believe this comment speaks for itself.

    or is it this...

    "I can summarize all of this with one simple acronym, CRAP. 12 fighter types??? "

    It's obvious you are confused yourself. You are grappling with the fact that you were told Atienza came from PTK, yet trying to reconcile the point that you also included the Atienzas as part of the "best," (which would fit so nicely with your premise that Atienza came from PTK), but wait a minute you now think that the concepts and strategies inside of Atienza Kali are CRAP. If Atienza comes from Pekiti, then how could it be crap...it worked out so much better for your orginal point (that Atienza comes from PTK) when they were one of the "best." This is what is so nice about convenience and perception....maybe no one will notice.

    "Truly, we wish the topic would go away."

    No you don't, the PTK people keep bringing up the link between PTK and Atienza...not the other way around. Are you and others trying to validate your own system by listing another system, one that is well respecting around the world? How about you just let your system stand for itself, and let ours do the same.

    "Truth is, these two groups are only two of many who have incorporated techniques of the Pekiti-Tirsia system into their styles, and they won’t be the last."

    I heard Leo Gaje trained the original spartan military, Hannibal, Ghenghis Kahn, and Alexander the Great...and all of their accomplishments come from him...too bad they aren't around to dispute these claims.

    Since you have already established the concepts in the Atienza system do not come from Pekiti, perhaps we can now discuss techniques (this should be easier for you, it's not as complex). Please provide documented evidence: Written AND video showing what TECHNIQUES Atienza utilizes that come EXCLUSIVELY from Pekiti and NO ONE else. The written evidence needs to be more substantial than the following statement:

    "But then again the historical facts are clear and well documented."

    This statement is just that until these historical facts and well documented information is provided.

    "That is the truest statement ever written by Rafael. My sincere regards to you."

    I think you missed the point in this statement that Tuhon Rafael was subtly making. Try again.

    "I wouldn’t bet my life on any of these “styles”."

    You don't need to. All of the Tuhons and higher level instructors have already done this...utilizing Atienza concepts, and are still around. The Atienza System will continue to utilize it's CONCEPTS and TACTICAL superiority to STRATEGIZE ways of tearing apart any system or individual, either in person or otherwise, who attempt to use our family name for selfish purposes...such as personal gain.

    "I can summarize all of this with one simple acronym, CRAP."

    That is a good acronym, Constantly Rising Above Pekiti.

    "12 fighter types??? You will be dead before you begin counting to figure out who you are supposed to be fighting."

    Thank you for documenting, for the WORLD, that Pekiti not only doesn't have fighter types, but don't know how to deal with this information in REAL TIME (such as anchor point tracking). We just want to make sure that 10 years down the road, assuming PTK is still around, you are not trying to take credit for this too..."Oh yeah, Supreme Grand Tuhon showed these fighter types to the Atienza brothers before they were 10...obviously they remembered it."

    "It is unbelievable that people today claim to be smarter based on their “conceptual innovations” than the Filipino warriors that carried and used the Blade everyday."

    What was it you said to somebody once..."Your lack of knowledge and experience (about Atienza and Sayoc) is glaringly apparent. Therefore, you lack the credibility to judge." If you haven't noticed the Atienza brothers are Filipinos and warriors, FYI.

    I'll end this with your favorite line:

    "These forums are for education and critical discussion, and my comments should not be taken personally."

    Followed up with, a little of you and a little of me (look at that PTK and Atienza working together) - "I simply do not believe in any FMA system/style/instructor that promotes..." ...theories that are contrary to something so basic as evolution. If something cannot evolve it becomes extinct. Looks like Natural Selection is working again....sorry for ya.

    Joshua Votaw
    Atienza Kali
    www.atienzakali.com
     
  5. Entropy

    Entropy New Member

    Steve,

    By failed, I am referring to the fact that it did not elicit a reflexive response, only a skilled one...which just means we need to adjust our fighter type to take care of the one that was just shown to us. Thanks for asking specific questions and answering mine.

    Joshua Votaw
    Atienza Kali
    www.atienzakali.com
     
  6. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    No problem. Sounds like you are talking about my teachers, here, when you say that "it did not elicit a reflexive response, only a skilled one..."(!)

    Best,

    Steve
     
  7. Kailat

    Kailat KAILAT KOMBATIVES GROUP

    I have a valuable question...

    So say any of us who study any of these systems, and for reference I pull a few out of a mix here;

    a) Pekiti Tirsia
    b) Dekiti Tirsia
    c) Sayoc Kali
    d) Atienza Kali
    e) Inosanto Kali
    f) Serrada eskrima
    g) Lameco eskrima
    h) On and On and On....etc..

    Ok, so say any one of us are studying said system, and we have been cross training in any of these over years, or say even just one. Mixed w/any t.m.a. like;

    Karate
    TKD
    KungFu
    on and on etc...

    we get into a position to save our life in true combat, or a fight. Which do we give tribute too? Do we then say its a mixture of all we studied? And then we go on to later in life decide to share and teach what we know works!

    Why not call it something of your own blend? Just because student A) and Student B) trained in the same system, under the same guy does not mean the 2 will fight the same..

    so why is it such a large delima when someone breaks away and calls something their own creation? Are some so afraid of others stealing one anothers thunder?

    im a bit confused about this

    case in point, my best friend and I have studied under the exact same system, style, teachers, lineage but we are both as different as night & day. We both have grown up pretty much the same m.a. yet we fight diff. And believe diff methods, and diff opinions on what works for him vs. what works for me.

    so as we get older and pass down what we learned, it will be diff. And it will have come from the same source.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2008
  8. shrapnel

    shrapnel New Member

    The way I understand it, styles really do evolve even in the case of JMA and CMA. Ngo Cho Kun kung fu, for example, is said to be a fusion of 5 different styles (that's why it's called Five Ancestor Fist). There are similar cases in other kung fu as well as Japanese arts. The difference is that it doesn't happen as fast and as often as in FMA.

    Perhaps this has something to do with the way Chinese and Japanese cultures value structure and respect for ancestors and loyalty to one's elders. That's why there are set techniques, forms and katas within each style and it was very easy to see who practiced what. Students didn't really think about adding an extra kick or extra step to the kata or form. So while two students might fight differently, they pretty much learned and taught (once they became teachers themselves) the same body of techniques and it was very easy to trace lineage. "Cross-training" as it is practiced today was probably not as prevalent, as this could be interpreted as disloyalty to your own school (which is structured like and treated as a family; your co-trainees are your brothers and sisters, while the master was the father figure).

    Of course, there were innovators who would either study different styles or introduce modifications based on their experiences, but as a percentage of the whole population of "traditional martial artists" they were few and far in-between. Which I guess is why there is the impression that "traditional" martial arts are static and all.

    In contrast, FMA as practiced before, and even up to the first half of, the 20th century was mostly informal and the styles/systems usually didn't have any names. It was normal for a student to study under several teachers, form his own conclusions about what worked for him (based on how he was able to use his knowledge in a real fight), and then practiced in his own unique way and taught that "distilled" knowledge to his students once he himself becomes a master. GM Lema himself studied under several different masters before forming LSAI in 1937. While this constant evolution makes the art "alive," it plays hell when it comes to tracing lineage in the "traditional" sense.

    I think the problem is that much of the world was exposed to CMA and JMA for several generations before FMA became popular, and CMA/JMA structures (belt ranking, the concept of forms and kata, etc) are still very prevalent today. Even contemporary FMA masters (e.g. GM Remy Presas and GM Cacoy Canete) were heavily exposed to JMA and/or CMA, elements of which found themselves in their FMA practice.

    So now you have people applying one paradigm to the other (seeing FMA through the eyes of CMA/JMA) and that's where all the confusion comes in. On the one end, some people want to preserve FMA lineage the same way CMA/JMA do it, but you could have some people in the same style who view it the same way FMA "purists" did it, meaning they only kept the body of knowledge that they actually used in a fight. And that's where the internal conflicts or cross-style conflicts come in.
     
  9. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member

    Hello Mr Waid,

    I'm afraid this has been covered many times and we're welcome to humor it because we are able to explain ourselves in a manner that attracts more students and practitioners to our respective systems.

    System (some definitions that fit):
    1. A group of interacting, interrelated, or interdependent elements forming a complex whole.
    2. An organized set of interrelated ideas or principles.
    3. A social, economic, or political organizational form.
    4. set of objects or phenomena grouped together for classification or analysis.
    5. A condition of harmonious, orderly interaction.
    6. An organized and coordinated method; a procedure.

    Mr. Waid, the topic returns because a PTK rep brings it up.
    You can google and verify every time it has happened.
    It has gone on long enough that those who used to be the PTK "attack" dogs years ago have already split off or been the unfortunate target of the system they once were loyal to. That is a fact. All this can be avoided - It only has to do with having an organized, harmonious PTK group to keep this topic from sprouting up ever again.

    As Sayoc reps, we get the opportunity to gain more students when this is brought up by a PTK rep. So historically the same tired broken record of a topic is VERY good for Sayoc. I have heard the Atienzas received some excellent support as well from this.

    Thank you. Because as you well know, if Tuhon Sayoc and many of his students had decided to go extra days in 1979 and maybe stick around with GT Gaje for another twenty years, instead of follow GM Cacoy Canete's lead they would be your seniors in PTK.

    Instead they followed a better path..

    Btw, where are all your seniors of PTK?

    As a TRUE viable system, you should have Americans with higher ranks than you, correct? I mean you started in the 80's right? PTK was around longer than that.

    Shouldn't there be like fifty Filipino MASTERS in PTK in the islands? Maybe more if the system was around since the late 1800's?

    Are you higher ranked than most of the PTK Pinoys in the islands?
    I heard PTK is such a huge organization down there.
    Just wondering.


    Let's discuss then.

    Sayoc teaching has saved many of our students lives. It has saved mine numerous times. We have been field testing the methods on the streets as police /corrections officers, FBI, Marine, SEALs, SWAT, and as civilians.

    It is heartwarming everytime we hear how one of our own was given a medal in the line of combat or a commendation for their police duty. As instructors of Sayoc we gain pride by the achievement and success rate of our system's teachings.

    So unfortunately the facts do not align with your assumption, but I can see no reason why you shouldn't state it. We have nothing to hide. Our record speaks for its own.


    That's interesting coming from a knife expert because FORCE is not bladework.
    Stickwork is dependent on impact FORCE and placement thereof.
    Bladework is dependent on correct targeting and precision.
    Even untrained people do not use blades for everyday chores specifically to use it's forceful attributes.
    They use blades because they have sharp edges and points.
    Blades actually counters the dependance on force.

    I always find it fascinating when an outsider describes Sayoc methodology for others.
    What is it that causes them to do this?
    You again state an observation that is based on being the Receiver, not the Feeder.

    Mr. Waid, you contradict other PTK reps when you state the tapping is poor. They say the tapping is identical to PTK tapping. Do you disagree with your own organized system's reps?

    Which is the true legit critical observation of our tapping so that we at Sayoc can offer the solution? Please organize.


    Please list the failures.
    Perhaps it was when we allowed a brave Filipino soldier to be disarmed on national tv in Fight Quest... TWICE? (maybe too much force, not enough precision?)
    Or when we tried to wrestle a caribou and the American host goofed on the "Filipino" here in the states? Yes, maybe that is when our footwork failed.
    or maybe when we wore our bright red cape and dripped chicken blood so that we can garner the powers of a chicken.

    Maybe those were the failure based ones?

    Please enlighten us Mr. Waid.

    You mean like this individual:

    "I’ve trained with many experts over my 24 years as a Navy SEAL and the information I’ve found to be the most efficient and well-rounded is the Sayoc Kali knife fighting techniques. You will acquire an exceptional proficiency with a knife beyond anything you thought possible.”

    Michael Jaco
    Originator / Head Instructor for the Navy SEALs Combat Fighting Course


    Oh like this individual:

    On a scale of 1 to 10, I rate Sayoc Kali a 10. I personally, highly recommend Tuhon Chris Sayoc to anyone interested in learning the strategies and tactics of edged weapons awareness and self-defense.

    Dan Inosanto
    Founder / Head Instructor
    Inosanto Academy of Martial Arts


    Keyword: Strategies and Tactics.

    It is bad strategy to fall into assumptions like the above.
    ALL the Sayoc moves have Pilipino terms, we can also translate it.
    It is called being evolved.

    We don't need to use Pilipino terms on the FMATalk because we want to communicate with the uninitiated. That's part of a well organized system's evolution.

    Communication is key.


    The Sayocs and Atienzas are Filipinos so they thank you Mr. Waid.

    However, when we see someone get slashed we no longer pour beetles and incite the names of Cebuan wood spirits on a piece of paper then toss it into a bamboo cannister and hope for the best. We use Quikclot, sutures or a modern day tourniquet, etc. it works better.

    An art that does not evolve is a dead art.

    Evolution is good for the art and the culture. Otherwise, a non Filipino person from Texas would never gain the title of "Maginoo Mandala". Development did quite well for you.


    That would make some sense if the assumed premise was true.
    However, no one from Sayoc or Atienza ever said we were smarter based on conceptual innovations, what we say is that we are the product of our ancestors and they survived because they adapted and continued to develop. We're actually continuing their legacy.

    If Americans decided to stop evolving their gun tactics, we'd still have armies fighting using the pike and shot formations of the revolutionary war. Some guy in a powdered wig would be online (the irony in that) arguing that these soldiers today know nothing about the true tactics of the gun.


    As much as the Filipino warriors of old are well-respected by us Filipinos, we do not deem them for more than what they were. Since the blood of our forefathers course through our veins, we are the true heirs of their legacy.

    We utilize the FMA to make our tribe and families stronger, more successful - what our forefathers wanted us to have.

    Filipinos did not die in the 1800's - they are alive and well.

    If someone out there ever meets an actual Filipino warrior from the 1800's please let us know.
    Evolution happens, it is like finally figuring out how to depress the caps lock on the keyboard.

    Now if you want to consider the FMA as a dead art, then feel free to do so but to many of us - evolution is key.
    Evolution is FMA.

    Keyword is heirs.

    Note this:

    All Filipinos in the states or in the islands are HEIRS of Filipino warriors.

    To suggest otherwise is not understanding the history of Filipinos.

    Once we can come to terms on this we can stop the useless chest beating and actually get somewhere.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2008
  10. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member

    Good point Cory.

    Speaking for Sayoc, we have many instructors who have Sayoc in their blend while still maintaining their instructor status in Sayoc. Even some Sayoc Tuhons have their own blend since some were already established outside practitioners. Others under different circumstances no longer train with Sayoc, but have Tuhon Sayoc's blessings to be successful on their own.

    No problems. No long threads on forums. Everyone moves on.

    Us being a system and all. :)
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2008
  11. Combative Edge

    Combative Edge New Member

    S. Kanner,

    Understood, thanks. However another issue I have is that in a multiple attacker situation I would say that throwing your weapon at one of the attackers is probably not such a good idea.



    Can someone please explain these in further detail?

    “fighter type (“Interceptors”) The Atienza system is always on the lookout for additional fighter types outside of the 12 classified ones we have.”

    “Combative Peripheral Stare (CPS)”


    “Force Anchor Tracking (FAT)”


     
  12. Kailat

    Kailat KAILAT KOMBATIVES GROUP

    Sun;

    "Speaking for Sayoc, we have many instructors who have Sayoc in their blend while still maintaining their instructor status in Sayoc. Even some Sayoc Tuhons have their own blend since some were already established outside practitioners. Others under different circumstances no longer train with Sayoc, but have Tuhon Sayoc's blessings to be successful on their own.

    No problems. No long threads on forums. Everyone moves on.

    Us being a system and all. :)"

    Well, this is something about Sayoc that im' seeing and very impressed by. They seem to have a good structure and business plan as well as a well thought out program of evolution... Too bad there are no Sayoc schools here in my neck of the woods! : (
     
  13. BayaniWarrior

    BayaniWarrior New Member

    Hey everyone. I'm currently an Atienza Kali practitioner out of New Jersey who saw this thread and felt like contributing to the discussion. I have studied FMA since I was 13 years old (I'm currently 22 years old). I have been blessed to have been able to have studied many different FMA systems in that time, which included Inosanto Kali, Lightning Scientific Arnis, Kalis Illustrisimo, Modern Arnis, and yes, Pekiti-Tirsia. However, after being an Atienza Kali practitioner for the last 2 years, I can honestly say that Atienza Kali and Sayoc Kali are truly different from the other systems I have studied. It differs not only in it's strategies and tactics, but also in it's training methodologies.

    As for the original question of this thread: "Sayoc and Pekiti-Are they the Same?", I too had the same questions a few years back. In order to figure this out, I actually decided to see first-hand for myself whether or not they were the same. As a result, I studied Pekiti Tirsia under Rommel Tortal in the Philippines two summers ago for 3 weeks, 5 days a week, privately & intensively, for 3 hours each day in my family's backyard. I wanted to learn PTK due to the fact that I truly respect PTK and the skills of it's practitioners, as well as to see whether or not all the rumors were true as to whether or not PTK and Sayoc/Atienza Kali were the same,. The PTK training was great, and I have great respect for Rommell Tortal, who my family began referring to simply as Rommell, because they saw him so often. To this day, I like to think of him as my friend. After training in PTK intensively for those three weeks, I realized that the angles of attack, footwork shapes, and even some of the technqiues, were similar, but it was during this time that I realized there is definitely a difference between PTK and Atienza Kali.

    The Force Anchors Methodology, as well as the Fighter Type principle, is what makes Atienza Kali so unique. In addition to that, the Atienza clan breaks down every single detail of a fight down so that it can be analyzed, trained, and isolated in training depending on the goal. Again, if one wants to truly see this difference, they must experience it themselves...it is not enough to see it with just the human eye. On a completely technical level, the stances and methods of weaponry differ between the two. For instance, PTK utilizes the abanico (fan strike) and witiks, which is not combatively trained in Atienza Kali.

    As it has been said before, techniques will crossover from system to system (i.e. diagonal forehand and backhand slashes, cross-arm knife tapping, thrusts, angular footwork patterns, etc.) However, this is only the tip of the iceberg. Techniques may be similar or identical from system to system but it's truly the delivery system that makes the techniques unique...not in their aesthetic appearance, but in their tactics, delivery, and application. Even deeper than this, we also need to look at the reasons behind the techniques as well as the purpose for each technique.

    Take Boxing for instance. There are only 4 punches: the Jab, Cross, Hook, and Uppercut. All boxers, regardless of their background or level of experience, use these four punches. However, while the techniques among all boxers may be the same...not all Boxers, or Boxing styles, are the same. Both Manny Pacquiao and Evander Holyfield are both Boxers, they use the four boxing punches, but it's clear that they are definitely different fighters. The reasons why Evander may use a jab-cross combo may differ from the reasons Manny Pacuqiao uses a Jab-cross combo. The techniques are the same, but it's how the punch is landed that makes the difference. The "how" the technique worked is what's key here. In order to understand this, we need to break down the fight into it's stages, which Atienza Kali and Sayoc Kali excel at and do so in a very analytical and scientific fashion.

    I'd just like to conclude that while studying Atienza Kali, I not only learned an incredibly effective system of self-protection and FMA, but I also learned how to properly conduct myself through my everyday life as a human being...how to deal with conflict, not just physical conflict, but internal emotional and spiritual conflict. As Tuhon Darryl Atienza has told me time and time again, "Life IS the training." As a American-born Filipino, it's in Atienza Kali that I have found a true sense of familial organization akin to the goodness of my culture...a group of people that truly support and look after one another in good times and in bad. It is for this reason that I truly love Atienza Kali and plan to continue to practice it for the rest of my life.

    -Michael Pana
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2008
  14. selfcritical

    selfcritical New Member

    Just to be clear, this is fact not remotely what I was asking in the OP. I am NOT asserting they are the same. I am explaining my experience that the Sayoc stuff seemed to "plug-n-play" with my pekiti training, moreso than any other FMA I had trained in. I then asked if someone who had experience with both more extensively could relate a comparison of methodologies in terms that would be familiar to me given said background.
     
  15. jedtkd

    jedtkd New Member

    BTW, Happy 70th Birthday Tuhon Gaje.
     
  16. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    Mike...nice break-down! Keep going strong and continue to learn the fighting methods of your ancestors. To me, there is nothing like it when it comes down to realistic self defense![​IMG]
     
  17. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    Yes, Dan Inosanto does like Chris but he also pushes PTK. He has been recommending Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje to me and everyone else for over 20 years. I know because I have been with Guro Dan that long through camps, seminars and going to his school.

    What is your problem with PTK and Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje anyway? You seem to get off on insulting people with what you think is witty but believe me, people are laughing at you. I can see being bias to your own style and sticking up for it if people are throwing ***** at it but no one here is doing that. I hope I didn't spell anything wrong in here...you might just jump down my throat for it!
     
  18. selfcritical

    selfcritical New Member

    I think the answer to this is obvious. When one feels they have been insulted, it's very hard not to want to cast the same sort of aspersions on the system of the one you feel slighted by. Especially when matters of family pride are at stake(as it is for tuhon gaje and I imagine all the surviving tortals, as well as any extant sayocs and atienza's), it can be especially hard to dissosociate the art from it's representative.

    Those of us who have the luxury of some emotional distance from the issues at hand should I think, try to as much as possible realize that the arts we are discussing here have merit independent of whatever positive or negative opinions some might have of their founders.
     
  19. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    I hear ya there! I personally feel and always felt there should be a brotherhood in martial arts due to the good they do for an individual. If you saw my bio on my website, you can see I am friends with everyone. Attacking and sitting on my ass picking apart what others say to make myself think I am better than thoa is not on my list of prioritys.

    This "lets attack PTK and Grand Tuhon" thing going on has to stop. Grand Tuhon Leo has said a few things but if you anylize what he is saying, he is only trying to get the point across about the roots of his system, and where it is today. He also sticks up for his culture...bias as that may be there is nothing wrong with Filipino pride! We all have pride in what we are as well as what we do...well, many of us do anyway!
     
  20. Stone

    Stone New Member

    Really? Is this what this is?

    FROM MASTERS WHO MANUFACTURED THEIR STYLE OR SYSTEM SHOULD JUSTIFY THEIR POSITION AS THE HEAD OF THEIR SYSTEM TO PROVE TO THE STUDENTS THAT THE SYSTEM WORKS. IF HE CANNOT PROVE THEN HE IS MONEY SYSTEM -A GRANDMASTER TO TAKE YOUR MONEY ON A THREE HOURS SEMINAR.THEN HE IS A LIAR AND THEFT NAMING HIS STYLE WHICH HE CANNOT PROVE. POOR STUDENTS ARE FOOLED BY THIS CLAIM MASTERS AND GRANDMASTERS. SO MY ADVICE IS IF YOU ARE FASHIONED TO BE A REAL MAN OF DESTINY AS WHAT YOUR DESIRE TO LOVE THE EDGED WEAPONRY THEN CHOSE TO BE ONE , BE A MAN OF STRENGTH TO RESIST THE STUPID STYLES THAT FOOLED YOU AND COMPENSATE YOUR LOSES IN FINDING SATISFACTION WHAT IS CORRECT AND WHAT IS REAL.
    STUDENTS IN THE FMA HAD BEEN VICTIMS BY THE MASTERS PRETENDERS WHO ARE CLAIMANTS WHOSE METHODS ARE MANUFACTURED UNDER THE PRETEXT THAT IT IS A FAMILY SYSTEM ARE TAKEN ADVANTAGE YET THEY KNOW THAT THEY ARE LEARNING A GARBAGE SYSTEM STILL CONTINUE TO WASTE MONEY, EFFORTS AND TIME AND LATER IT WILL COST THEIR LIFE AGAINST A TRAIN WARRIOR.
    iF YOU HAVE THE REALITY OF BEING A WARRIOR THEN YOUR INTELLIGENCE WILL TELL YOU THAT YOU CANNOT BE A PART OF THESE MASTERS WEB SITES AND STYLES THAT WILL NEVER WORK. THOSE WHO TALK IN THE FMA TALK ARE ONLY GOOD IN THE KEYBOARD. GET OUT FROM THE KEY BOARD AND TRY YOUR SKILL."

    Or this?

    TesT of skill in the philipines will clean the idiots
    The Pekiti-Tirsia kali System is conducting a test of skill on FEbruary 12, 2008 in the Philippines .It is not a tournament but a test of oneself how effective a style or system all about FMA. Those who are talkers in the FMATALK is invited to be a man or woman to come out from their talking tongue so they can satisfy themselves what comes out from their mouth. If you cannot stand in the verbalization calisthenics you have no reason to be hiding under the curtain of woman's bedroom. Martial arts is not talking it is action and let the stick , blade , hands and feet speaks not your tongue.
    Test of skill is no age limit , come and be man enough to prove your capabilities.
    Location: Philippine Marines Training Ground
    Forth Bonifacio, Taguig , Metro manila
    Date: FEbruary 12,2008 starts at 10:00 Am.
    Register address to Mandala Rommel Tortal email: rommeltortal@yahoo.com
    TEl No. 011 63 920 241 9320
    You can ask the rules if you are at the registration door . Be sure you make your reservation.

    Or maybe this post made today by GT Gaje's on his new forum?

    "They knew nothing because when the double blade, the razor blade balisong is rocking their brain how to disarm, how the ginunting flying like stealth aircraft, the talibong that sings : Don't cry for me Argentina; crank their brains in solving with their hands as taught by some ambitious MASTERS by posture and by glamour, it produces a doubtful mind and the poor fellow has to recover his thousands of dollars plus used time that went to drain.He woke up and see the time to change, he change for the better, they were Welcome to Pekiti-Tirsia.
    Pekiti-Tirsia is a family system of my very own family Conrado B. Tortal not a bastardized adoption of some names and using techniques that are against the cardinal rules of combat-(sword disarming) is not in the family system. What an insult to the mentality of the American mind and other nationality. Disarming the blade is unpardonable sin , a sin of ignorance.
    It is by intellectual common sense analysis how to distinguish the right teachings or wrong flagerished teachings, first is the person qualified,what is his profound background, his track record, where did he came from and is there a history of his family that he can claim his family sytem if so when did he became an official trainee of his father or grandfather."


    You do realize that most of the people GT Gaje's been slamming for the last few years are all philippino, right??? Awesome Pinoy pride.

    And I find your rather casual use of Pamana Tuhon Sayocs name, while always using GT Gaje's full title, and at least using Manong Inosanto's full name, rather interesting. I know you guys had dinner and everything. Are you and , "Chris", that close?

    B.J. Stone.
     
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