Sayoc and Pekiti- as they are now.

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by selfcritical, Apr 22, 2008.

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  1. selfcritical

    selfcritical New Member

    I appreciate your concerns ed, but could we please split the historical discussions from the technical one in this case? Or follow through on PM?
     
  2. Gilla

    Gilla -== Banned ==-

    Sorry me and Sunhelmet don't seem to get along. I think he has a crush on me .Anywho Sayoc and PTK do offer alot to anyone who can avoid politics and such i think it is all one art and each facet is up to the persons choice. I have done mostly silat and PTK but also muay thai , some Inosanto blend and ready for a shock Sayoc kali all have alot to offer but my one steady romance is PTK. I also think there are some arts that are more combat effective then others. Grappling should be a part of everyones training as should be striking, kicking and impact and edged and firearm training. Some arts mesh well others don't it is up to the person to find what speaks to them. My new training has been in BJJ and Shootfighting as well as dumog.
    Ed
     
  3. Malapitan

    Malapitan New Member

    I think it's a little too late for that dude. It looks like you'll have to have that Sayoc technical discussion on PM or maybe somewhere else. This thread is most definitely hijacked and God only knows where this will lead. :sword2:
     
  4. Gilla

    Gilla -== Banned ==-

    It was going nicely for a minute i tried to say some thing that was of help but alas it was for nada.
    Ed
     
  5. Entropy

    Entropy New Member

    Steve,

    Thanks for the inquiry.

    Edgar “Butch” Atienza was the head of Arnis Americas back in the 70’s, which gave him access to many FMA masters including

    · Matt Marinas
    · Florendo Visitacion
    · Dong Cuesta
    · Sayoc

    He was an avid FMA practitioner seeking out anyone with some FMA knowledge. He was training with Master Leo, but only for a few years, and it was when the brothers were toddlers just to give the time period perspective. He left PTK and Arnis Americas for reasons we will not get into here however continued to train with multiple people for many years after that. The father took all of this training and kept what worked for him and trained his kids with that. Just to give an example…every mass attack situation they often found each other in were always analyzed to the fullest amongst the boys.

    The brothers cross trained in many styles and arts as they got older as well. The brothers found common links through what their father had taught them and what they had trained on their own. However, every other system they looked into didn’t have solutions for the problems they were encountering on a daily basis…so they were forced to formulate their own out of necessity. As they crossed blades, pipes, bats, sticks with other people from the street, other systems…etc, they began pulling everything together into their different formulas and concepts.

    So, I guess to answer your question earlier, the Atienza system became a system when the brothers decided to bring their formulas and concepts they had developed through the years out to the public (as a tribute to their father who passed away). The system has influence from everything listed above; however the concepts within the system are exclusively those of the brothers…concepts learned through much blood, sweat and tears. The Atienza system is not static…it does not exist from one place or time period in history, the system constantly evolves with the addition of each new instructor and the experiences they bring to the table. This is why I was curious and posted what I had…I knew that those concepts were specific to AK, I was just interested in what PTK had that may be similar since so many people do make that qualified statement which you pointed out Steve. Hope this was able to help out.

    Joshua Votaw
    Atienza Kali
    www.Atienzakali.com
     
  6. lmanalo

    lmanalo New Member

    Greetings Everyone!
    This has been a very hotly debated thread. And I it looks as if I might have come in at the tail-end but I felt I had to reply to one of CGilla's statement.
    Again, this is misleading when you say that a "lot of it came from PTK". Entropy has mentioned some of the AK tactics & Principles & has even expanded upon some AK development history. No one in AK has disagreed that Butch Atienza trained with Master Leo. But his training did not stop there. And the Atienza brothers were children when Master Leo was around. And for as long as I have studied under the Atienza Tuhons, they have never trained under a PTK instructor. I know for a fact, the Atienza brothers attribute their main influence as Tuhon Chris Sayoc.

    What is exactly similar that everyone thinks that AK has with PTK? I have trained in AK for most of my FMA but I started with PTK (though I cannot be considered a true PTK practitioner because I only studied for a short time). However, I have been exposed to FMA for over 16 years & I do not see the similarities other than those shared by ALL FMA's. Such as a #1 strike is universally a forehand strike.

    I am not trying to be confrontational but I am asking for respect in words chosen. Some might consider this as being nit-picky but we are forced to work in the constraints of the language. Atienza Kali is not trying to put down PTK but rather include all the other FMA & martial systems that have made AK what it is today.

    Respectfully,
    LManalo
    Full Instructor
    Atienza Kali
     
  7. lmanalo

    lmanalo New Member

    I also wanted to comment to Darren's inquiry to the Cold Steel Competition. I agree with Entropy that it is a good competition to check out. Atienza Kali participated in that event because its sword rules are very similar to our own blade simulator match rules.
    i.e. valid shots to targets (head, limbs, torso) ended the exchange. also, thrusts were counted. this is more valid in sword matches than stick matches.
    I would check out the ColdSteel site for more detailed rules and see if this is similar to how you train at your school.
    Another tournament that looks good (at least according to its rules) is the Blade Edge tournament held in Texas.

    Good luck in your training.

    Respectfully,
    LManalo
    Full Instructor
    Atienza Kali
     
  8. selfcritical

    selfcritical New Member

    It's the Edge Stickfighting Tournament, the guy I used to train I/L runs it. I might compete this year. In theory Leslie will also be holding a tournament again at some point with padded and rattan divisions, fairly mininmal gear(gloves, kneepads, helmet).
     
  9. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member


    That's probably true that you haven't seen the core of the training because only so much can be taught at a seminar and dvd or even a few classes.

    For example, everything you stated concerning grappling/shootwrestling applies to Sayoc knife work. Watch how someone like Tuhon Tom Kier teaches a non-introductory seminar and you'll see/feel what I am talking about.

    As I stated, many advanced grapplers see the value right away once they get accustomed to what the basics are.

    For example, "isolating limbs" where do you see that method come into play in your basic tapping? We all know you don't tap forever unless you are giving the guy an arm massage. :)

    At what point do you think a slight modification allows you to utilize some of these concepts into your knife training?

    Controlling posture is another important factor. Could you see a way that your own knife training can mesh and complement this?

    I'm asking because it is much easier to gauge from your responses if you tell me what you don't know rather than me telling you something then you respond by saying "yeah, I knew that". That benefits neither one of us. It also makes one accustomed to being in Receiver mindset, which Sayoc principles does not advocate.

    It's actually a very eye opening experience for many once they're shown how to get to assessing root movements and pre-installed responses. Remember, we're trying to make our students experts, we're not concerned about "chest puffing" as some have stated.

    It is easy to teach someone how to use a killing art, but how do you use that knowledge to enter other facets of your training? How do you teach instructors to think in a way that benefits themselves and their fellow students? So that it evolves the art. If we rely only on the past, then we're doomed to become stagnant.

    If one can show them how to apply what they know and learn each day, how this can affect the way they respond to other facets of their daily life, even the part we as instructors are not involved with, then from our experience it only benefits the whole system.

    Warriors don't fight by themselves and we learn from our mistakes.
    You're not going to catch a Sayoc guy saying they are baddest guy on the planet, or even state this as if we're at a high school yard.

    As Tuhon Sayoc says, "Someone in our system paid blood to learn the lessons we are being taught."

    Does their learning and application of deconstructing what and how people react and respond benefit them in other ways?

    Or are we just showing them something that makes them feel like they are the killing machine?

    The most gratifying thing is to see all the hundreds of instructors/students through the thirty years I have been associated with Sayoc come into their own. How the bond is at the root of the tribal mindset. How the community has grown in a positive direction.

    The Feeder-based mindset that Sayoc is all about is not about memorization of drills. That's never the point but almost always the focus from outsiders. The core is to teach how an individual can solve the missing puzzle pieces on their own or with their training partners/fellow instructors.

    There are formulas that we teach which directly applies to this that would be too time consuming to get into in this limited format. Much of which wouldn't concern or hold any interest to many of the readers.
     
  10. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member

    Wow, the projection beam is on high!!! :)

    Btw, I don't not like you, I can only go by what you've written. As I stated in my last post, there's room for you to take the feeder mindset and make things better in terms of how Sayoc reps respond to you from now on.

    Remember all of this could have been avoided. You and I both know that, and it takes a greater effort to filter through the muddy waters than to respond with more of the same.
     
  11. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member

    This is a very important logic bubble that has set solid in many PTK rep's perception of how Sayoc and others who have trained briefly with GT Gaje are viewed, and once they can make the logical step of understanding what Guro Leo just articulated it will make and open doors for them.

    Just because someone takes four years of math, it doesn't turn him into a math genius. Even if they studied under a well respected professor.

    If one applied this very simple idea to the above misnomer, "lot of it came from PTK" it would make it easier to understand that making such claims (and worse) will never make logical sense to those who actively train in those systems.

    For all the credit that groups like the Atienzas have lauded to the Sayoc org. for their success and evolution, you will never see a day when a Sayoc rep will argue and question their legacy. Nor how they have achieved what they did because of Sayoc.

    Their hard work is their own and we respect their father's memory as Tuhon Sayoc's mentor and the Atienza group as brothers of the FMA to suggest otherwise.
     
  12. rshawtx

    rshawtx New Member

    If I may...

    I think I saw some headway back there--even a spark of civility but that was quickly dashed because our communication on these boards lack the non-verbal components of communication. So with that in mind, I suggest that we cut each other some latitude and not take liberties with what we assume someone's intentions are.

    I think I see the burr under Tuhon Rafael's (a.k.s. SunHelmet) saddle. He is taking exception at the pride that some PTK practitioners (myself included... mea maxima culpa) have in the system and the harsh words towards Sayoc/Atienza (and other systems) that have come from that pride. We all have pride in our systems... that is a foregone conclusion. For that, the PTK forum was reprimanded and was closed down for a time. OK, message received. For good or ill, some have either left the boards or have been altogether banned. Those that remain have humbly taken their stripes... and dare I say basically good.

    Now Tuhon Rafael, do I have it pretty much down or am I completely off base here? The reason I ask is, I don't think it is a fruitful exercise to ask for redress after the punishment has already been given and the bitter pill swallowed.

    Now and again the history comes up which is another point of contention that I'd rather not bundle in. We are all in agreement that PTK has influenced Sayoc so we can all celebrate that fact. Yes, I did say "celebrate." :biggrinbo Sama-sama. As someone said in these boards, tearing each other apart "is so 1800's". :)
     
  13. Gilla

    Gilla -== Banned ==-

    O.K. so let me start again. This could have been cut short and i agree it serves
    no purpose.(i admit i had my part in it) The similarity's of our art are many and i think we all wish for day's gone-bye and the was not all this ugly fighting. I have my idea's and they have been shared on this forum. For any insult to AK i say sorry, going by look's and stuff i have read earlier i see PTK in it but i know you have added much of yourself and experience to it and it is something of your own and i respect that. Tuhon Chris is a great instructor and has a strong org. and has some really cool stuff to offer. I have butted heads with Sun Helmet but in order to have some real dialog i will be willing to be less antagonistic. As long as we all agree to do the same.
    Ed
     
  14. pedro

    pedro New Member

    Let's sum up.

    - misspelling - yes
    - issue taken - yes
    - evil intent on either side - no
    - tempers flared - yes
    - apologies and cooler heads - yes
    - PTK forum just reinstated - yes
    - chance to have it permanently closed by continuing this thread - maybe
    - so for the sake of the forum maybe enough has been said - yes
     
  15. PeteNerd

    PeteNerd Member

    That post brought a tear to my eye. Now can we get all the FMA together and make fun of something like Karate or Tae Kwon Do? Just Kidding.

    In all seriousness though, I would love to see more unity in the FMA. I know it's hard cause there are a lot of egos involved, but I'm sure someone can figure something out.

    Pete
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2008
  16. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

    I'm glad someone realized this.
     
  17. tanod

    tanod New Member

    so to get this thread going again. why dont you start by telling us your observation on both arts. on your question you said "for those with some experience on both. you have experience on both. what's your observation? then maybe we can go from there.
     
  18. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    LManalo...for well over 30 years I have been in FMA's starting with Kuntao. I found they are all the same but different. They all have 45 degree angle hitting, footwork and body angling, Well, at least the logical styles do...some just bash each other. It probably would be hard to pick out exactly what style influenced your style I would assume unless there was a culture outside the Filipino cuture added in.

    What I find in Grand Tuhons Leo's style is the counter offensive movements he shows. How to develop the reflex to be there before the opponents weapon is there. He has a certain way to teach that where my crippled broken down body can utilize it. I find it is something that can be done well into an old age to take on a young athletic thug in whatever crime oriented situation. The development of timing and rythym can stay with you forever. Thats what I find unique about Grand Tuhons Leo's style in comparison to others that I have worked with. If you see my bio on my website, I have been around to many different styles especially in FMA's which is the reason I came up with this conclusion. And the reason I chose PTK for my personal self.

    I mention this because if the afore mentioned styles I said had PTK influence, I am sure that particular attribute will be seen within those styles. PTK has a long history of success against the Spanish and against the Japanese not to mention tribal battles over land. Proof of that...Grand Tuhons Leo's family lived long enough to hand down their family system...what more would a person want for proof? A certain style in such conditions of the way the Philippines used to be would die out if the family died![​IMG]
     
  19. Black Grass

    Black Grass Junior Member

    OK first a caveat. I have a very limited knowledge of PTK and even less of Sayoc and Atenzia. So I make this observation as an outsider to these systems. This is an opnion based mostly on observation from demos and videos from the internet.

    So as an outsider I would say Sayoc, Pekiti and Atenza LOOK very similar. The knife tapping drills look identical (not sure if Sayoc and Atienza do the cat stance thing that PTK does). Also when each does sayaw/amara/carenza you would be hard pressed to tell the difference on which system is being done.

    As outsider its easy to see why people might think they are one in the same. Again this about look and feel and not about the structure or progression of teaching. No one would confuse Sayoc, PTK, Atienza with let say Ilustrisimo or Modern Arnis.

    Vince
    aka Black Grass
     
  20. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    I agree with Vince that Sayoc, PTK and AK look similar when they do sayaw/amara/carenza. Any of the cat stance, leg flicks, stomps and grinding motions are definitely PTK signature. But other than that, AK or Sayoc got their each and own unique and distinct qualities not found in PTK. And thats from outside observation.
     
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