Sayoc and Pekiti- as they are now.

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by selfcritical, Apr 22, 2008.

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  1. selfcritical

    selfcritical New Member

    So, as some background, I have roughly two years of Pekiti Tirsia under my belt, and am a reaonable student, with no incredible well of prodigy-ish skills or the like. Last year, for about 6ish months, I was able to train Sayoc Kali with a local group leader in Austin on and off.

    Originally, this was mostly a dabbling thing. Aaron held his practices on nights which I had no Pekiti classes to go to, and I had an aching to do as much FMA as I could. I decided to join up because a) it was free and b) I figured as long as the different material didn't make me actively worse at pekiti, it would probably be a win-win situation for me. The worse that could happen would be that the assumptions would be different, and I would politely say goodbye as I did when I had the oppurtunity to try out inosanto kali for some time.

    What I found when I had train Inosanto Kali was that so many things I had learned where basic skills were simply skipped over or downplayed in their curriculum, and in many ways the systems felt distantly related except for the lameco material.

    By contrast, when I started Sayoc Kali, my motions were immediately right for the drills. My introduction was primarily just tapping freely, doing the drills related to the 3 of 9 vital template, Transition Drill 1, shock entries, and some other material. The rest of the group excepting Aaron himself had no FMA background prior to sayoc, and I found this evident pretty quickly. Apparently the fact that I was able to do the (compliant, knife vs empty hand) version of 3 of 9 my first night out was highly unusual. While the training was of course different, the way I was expected to move, in terms of body mechanics, foot placement, zoning and so on was always in line with my pekiti training. For example, the basic knife tapping during 3 of 9 with the sayoc guys involved using the sidestep(although much "shrunk" from how i would normally do it), something I never once did while praticing with the I/L guys. In many other ways, the demands that the sayoc methodolgy was putting on my movement was congruent with what I was learning with pekiti.

    My understanding is that a number of people experience with sayoc kali have also praticed pekiti at some point. So my question, for those with some experience with both- how would you characterize the relation between how they are taught or praticed right now,in terms of methods, mechanics, strategy, etc.

    Keep in mind, this is not a question relating to the lineage of said arts, which I could frankly care less about. Simply noting that both BJJ and Sambo come from Judo, for example, tells us next to nothing about the method of instruction and concepts, which are quite different.(BJJ tends to instruct by teaching positions first, and Sambo teaches gross physical movmeents, and then begins to derive technique from those), while things with no historical connection can be quite closely connected in their solutions(German Ringen and Japanese Jujitsu are eerily similar).

    My first observation would be that much of the same material in Pekiti is generally taught by isolating the root motion or gross motor movement, and refining that before individual technique is derived. Footwork and sport-speficic movements that appear over and over are drill and perfected, and then applied.

    By contrast, my sayoc training started, as I would put it in media res. They would have you performing the application over and over, with the hopes that the feedback from the live drill would gradualy teach you through trial and error where your feet needed to be and how you must move.

    To reiterate once again. I simply dont' care about the related lineage here, and I dont' think it actually does anything to answer my question to talk about it.
  2. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    It seems like through what I see anyway that many systems are related to PTK one way or another. At least the ones that are combative anyway. Inosanto Kali, Lameco, Sayak Kali, Atienza Kali, Dekiti Tirsia Serradas, along with a few lesser names all have roots or have something to do with PTK within their system To me, it is a compliment to the system I like to practice and teach. PTK is the real scientifically designed ancient Filipino style. It can used at any age when a person needs self defense most.

    I am not being bias here...I have been in FMA's since the mid 70's starting with Kuntao then moving around from there. I still maintain my Kuntao practice but in serious weapons style, I chose PTK because it is a logical fighting style that if you put in the time to do it, refexes pop up for good counter offensive movements automatically. To me, that is a real science.

    And please, do not take this as if I am putting down the other afore mentioned styles...I am open to everything. But I just so happen to have my favorites that work for me as an individual!
  3. selfcritical

    selfcritical New Member

    No problem at all. I'm simply more interested in the conceptual connections than the historical ones, as my last name is neither "Gaje", "Tortal", or "sayoc"........I don't feel obliged to speak on family business.

    Pekiti is and always will be my base, but there are more days in the week that there are classes for me to take, so I always try and poke around with other blade arts when I can to see what the clear concepts i've learned in Pekiti can help me uncover. Some things mesh well(German swordsmanship, oddly enough), some things didn't (the local inosanto instructor that teaches where I take my kickboxing classes).

    Particularly for things that are mechanically similar to pekiti in the first place, i'm especially interested if they are approaching similar material with different training methods.
  4. Gilla

    Gilla -== Banned ==-

    Your Pekiti training will make you able to pick up Sayoc very quickly, our base tapping on 5,8,and 9 will give you a very strong base on which to build on. Also your training in the 7 basic footwork patterns will give you foot work instead of having to find it. Some think the no footwork thing is a very advanced idea i don't. Sayoc also has some very interesting ideas on false reading and unexpected lines of attack. To me it seems a lot of the tapping was designed to defeat the tapping in PTK and Doce Pares . Hope i was a help.
  5. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member

    Hello Ron,

    First off the spelling is SAYOC Kali, and it is on the thread's subject heading as well as on Google. As a PTK practitioner you're quite aware of this correct?

    From what you just wrote, that is a biased observation. That's not a bad thing, everyone has a bias but let's be honest. If you state the system you train under is the REAL scientifically designed ancient Filipino style, that is implying that others are not, which of course my bias states is quite incorrect. Is this poetic license on your part?

    If you are truly open to everything then why state something is REAL, aren't ALL these styles REAL?

    If they have roots in Filipino tribal fighting methods aren't ALL the aforementioned styles ANCIENT in the vague definition you have used here?

    If ALL these systems EVOLVED through the years with a structured curriculum, are they not ALL SCIENTIFICALLY designed?

    The days of PTK defining (and worse by others) Sayoc Kali on public forums are over.

    This is the future.

    --Tuhon Rafael--
    Sayoc Kali
  6. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member

    Sayoc Kali is feeder based so the methodology has to do with who has the knife at the time of engagement.

    I disagree with the root movement theory, because the 3 of 9 involves introducing the most important root of the knife - what the target is.

    The drill is first taught to students because it tells the student right away what you are trying to do, and why you are doing it. It is based on sound biological structure and the deconstruction thereof.

    Footwork is not introduced right away because as you have defined it - you are looking at it from the Receiver's perspective... how you are tapping the knife. The focus of the drill is not on the tapping, it is on how to defeat the guy tapping.

    The footwork is in the Feeder's perspective, you are already squared up or constantly positioning to square up therefore, the Receiver must tap correctly or he is exposed right away. If the Receiver is not aware of the correct tapping responses then the Feeder gains the OODA loop advantage.

    The Receiver has no time in this range for footwork, not at this close a range and not if you move in real time against an aggressive knife guy.
    The Feeder has already closed so you must rely in body mechanics and gaining back that halfbeat to integrate your footwork. In turn, you must become the Feeder and move beyond the tapping cycle because it is designed for the Feeder to win.

    If you tap empty hand against an aggressive knife guy, one cannot maintain a defensive/Receiver mentality beyond two taps or you are risking grave injury in real life. The optimum is to become the Feeder right away.

    As you observed quite astutely, Western swordsmanship adapts well because some of the Sayoc Tuhons have studied in the Western sword arts as well on a very high level from prior Eastern European Olympic level coaches to deconstructing manuals and most importantly to interacting with other WMA swordsmen of high caliber. This is also why the footwork concept comes into play because we gathered all the real time evidence from many edged weapon arts to come up with a universal and logical conclusion.

    The same can be said with BJJ and combative Wing Chun stylists, because their previous training meshes with Sayoc instantly. We recently demoed Sayoc Kali to a very well know BJJ practitioner and he immediately saw the correlation. The same with many Silat instructors. They appreciate the methodology for the way it is structured and how the movement and concepts are explained in a very logical manner.

    Your previous and present FMA training will serve you well in Sayoc if you continue to train it. The one advice I can give is to start thinking as the Feeder, that will assist you in adapting to the way Sayoc is taught.

    Also, in Sayoc we always support students to crosstrain with other FMAs and instructors. There's nothing to hide and we support the FMA because divide and conquer is so 1800's...:D

    --Tuhon Rafael--
    Sayoc Kali
  7. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    I apologize for the bad spelling. Spelling isn't my main subject.

    Anyway, if you read my post, I never said everything else is not real. I said that I choose PTK for my personal self due to the fact that I like the science and the logic of it.

    I have met Chris Sayac and gone to dinner with him but I never trained in the system so I cannot say one way or another. Therefore I would not give an opinion. In fact, I have only done, out of the afore mentioned, Lameco and I am an instructor in Kali under Dan Inosanto. And I did not say those are NOT scientific either. In fact, if you read my bio on my website (which needs to be updated) you will find that I have trained in many systems. I am far from bias nor do I put down other styles unless I personally see that the style or the instructor sucks.

    Me thinks there are many on this forum that have met me over the years that can vouch for my open mindedness in various martial art styles. Reread what I said above. I know on a forum it is hard to really see what a person means due to lack of expression and being upclose and personal so it can easily be taken out of context.
  8. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member

    So how long did it take you to get "kOsAkOwski" right? cuz your fingers are still dancing all over the keyboards with "SAYOC".

    You're basically stating that you pushed the "a" rather than the the "o" located on the opposite side of the keyboard on your most recent post.

    That means you've typed in "a" and "o" on YOUR name ("kOsAkOwski") thousands of times on the keyboard in correct order and for "sAyOc" with vowels identically alternating in respective order to YOUR last name, you were not able to do it. This time you spelled it "Sayac"...

    Does this mean you sometimes mistype your name, "Kasokawski" or do you sometimes switch the "c" and "k" to "Cosacowsci"?

    Just wondering because illogical coy excuses is not my subject. :)

    Got it - so we can remove the word "real" in your initial post because as you state below, you consider ALL these aforementioned systems "real", correct?

    But you did give an opinion. Please read what you typed again:

    "At least the ones that are combative anyway. Inosanto Kali, Lameco, Sayak Kali, Atienza Kali, Dekiti Tirsia Serradas, along with a few lesser names all have roots or have something to do with PTK within their system To me, it is a compliment to the system I like to practice and teach. PTK is the real scientifically designed ancient Filipino style."

    That looks like an opinion or is it something else?

    Thanks for providing me with a more reasoned and less confusing explanation.

    --Tuhon Rafael--
    Sayoc Kali
  9. kuntaokali

    kuntaokali New Member

    Getting a bit knit picky are we not?
  10. Combative Edge

    Combative Edge New Member

    Rafael, I can assure you Ron is a horrible speller.
  11. Banakun

    Banakun New Member

    "At least the ones that are combative anyway. Inosanto Kali, Lameco, Sayak Kali, Atienza Kali, Dekiti Tirsia Serradas, along with a few lesser names all have roots or have something to do with PTK within their system To me, it is a compliment to the system I like to practice and teach. PTK is the real scientifically designed ancient Filipino style."[​IMG]

    There are many combative Filipino Arts which have no roots or anything to do with PTK within their system, an example of which is Kalis Ilustrisimo (among MANY others such as JDC-IO, etc.). True that some styles maybe more "sport oriented" than others but for the most part, most FMA styles I find are still combative in nature and mindset (at least the one's here in the PI, dunno about how it is outside since everybody can sue everybody so training is quite a bit different). I think it would not be logical to make a generalization such as this since we can't really make a judgment based on an "instructors movement." There are many so-called instructors who'se movements are NOT representative of the particular style or system they say they teach. [​IMG] That's actually a SAD fact nowadays with the rise of the McDojos.

    True, many styles/systems have had exposure in their past to other FMA styles/systems. Some influence others more to a certain degree, for some the influence is mutual.

    I'm glad you've found PTK and that it works for you Ron. Keep it up and keep the fire burning. I may not be PTK but I can appreciate a good system when I see one.[​IMG]
  12. Topeng

    Topeng New Member

    Really? I'm a practitioner of neither but from what I've seen of each, I would have never thought BJJ and Sayoc would go together that well.
  13. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member

    Considering that the Sayoc family were training in grappling arts like Judo since they were kids, and that most of the Sayoc instructors have grappling and BJJ backgrounds as well - it is a natural combination.
  14. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member


    Could you please introduce yourself and tell me a bit of your background before you post anonymously? I looked over your 8 posts and there's lots of general PTK inquiries but no indication of who you are.

    It looks like you're a beginner student in PTK. You were doing very well asking about PTK on these boards so that's cool.

    So if you can post something about yourself we can get a dialogue going because frankly, I was not directing my comments to you.

    My post was about defining Sayoc Kali for others and then getting the family name spelled incorrectly, not once but even after I pointed it out.

    There's of course excuse for bad typing skills, lack of attention in not viewing the thread's title heading, momentary lapse of focus and even horrible spelling, but after the mistake has been pointed out and you do it again that's something else.

    That may be a "bit nit picky" but Sayoc Kali reps will be a bit nit picky these days.

    That's too bad, but that's how things are going to be.
  15. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member


    My premise was not about a person's general spelling skills, but the specific spelling of Sayoc.

    Once we get an indication that it's something he'll do correctly in the future (so far no indication) then his comments concerning our training methods will be given more credence.

    --Tuhon Rafael--
  16. puntadas

    puntadas New Member

    I've heard tea tree oil is good for removing nits.
  17. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member

    I heard that the banned button was better.

    Puntadas, since you introduced your brand of humor into this thread without my provocation, please don't take any offense at my comeback, as my uncles used to say:

    "Don't bring a knife to a battle of wits." :)
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2008
  18. Combative Edge

    Combative Edge New Member


    1. please show me where Ron made a comment on the Sayoc training methods.

    2. I understand your respect and loyalty to Sayoc. However Ron spelled an uncommon name wrong, of a system that he has no loyalty to, and could probably care less about.

    3. Look how many people spell Pekiti Tirsia-Pikiti Tersia. Like a child Ron spells words how they sound...Sayok, Sayak, Sayoc.
    This is really not that big of a deal.
  19. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

    Admin Note:

    Let's count to ten before our next post.

    Thank You.
  20. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member

    This is moot. I have already made my point and Ron already explained himself.

    I think it is best for Ron to speak for himself rather than go off into tangents.

    I'm asking politely in lieu of Ron's self-admitted respect for Sayoc to spell the name correctly when he includes it in his public commentary in the future.

    This allows credence to one's words.
    Simple as that. No big deal.

    When Sayoc students ask us about the blades Ron sells on his site, we tell them to buy and support his endeavor.

    Simple, and we get his name right.

    Respect is mutual. No big deal.

    --Tuhon Rafael--
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