Question regarding difference in abenico in kombaton and MA

Discussion in 'Kombatan' started by garland, Mar 7, 2007.

  1. garland

    garland New Member

    Last night we were working tapi-tapi with Ralph, a high level student of Duane's (my former instructor) and he mentioned the difference between abenico in Kombaton versus abenico in Modern Arnis.

    Specifically he stated that Remy used to like setting up off like a number one strike and flowing around when they blocked it with a force hit into an abenico strike. Alternatively he said Ernesto liked to do it a different way. It's difficult to describe without pictures so I'll do my best:

    Basically you stand feet together, left hand on your right bicep, your right arm in a ninety degree angle out from your body so it goes out and then up (your hand should be level with your eyes). Then you fan the strike from there. Ralph did not know what precipitated the difference. My only guess would be:

    Perhaps Ernesto's method is more a way of ensuring you learn the movement in the classical sense versus Remy's being a more 'battle tested' version? That's the best I can figure. Logically I think I'd go with Remy's version of the maneuver because it makes more sense to me, however many of the drills regarding abenico that I learned recently use the 'Ernesto-version' of abenico.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I've seen the left-hand-on-right-arm in abanico before. But overall, the practice method you mention sounds similar to what we learned in Modern Arnis, but we also learn the entry you mention.
     
  3. garland

    garland New Member

    Thanks. Yeah the strike getting blocked flowing into an abenico seems natural. If I were to guess, the arm on bicep version is merely a method of training the technique by itself. Though there may be some alternate purpose to which I'm not aware. That's I guess what my goal is to find out :)
     
  4. armas

    armas Junior Member

    I want to reply to this but it is kinda not clear. Here I go hope this helps.

    The first describes the movement of executing a Horizontal Abanico strike(am I right). If the Left hand is on the Right bicep that is only a way of controlling your striking right in a way that is in the corto range. Sometimes it is a way of teaching the student to keep the left up and not hanging or dangling on the side. It is not a norm to hold on to your bicep. The above is only a basic movement. It could be you started with a force to force block and as you entered you countered with a abanico(as a counter attack).

    The version you say of Gm Remy's versio is a variation of abanico applied in combat. He either fakes a #1 then goes in to the fan strike to the other side to set up a response; as a counterstrike; or finishing move if hitting the temple.

    Either way the Abanico is used as a rapid counter attack, a way to make openings in an opponent's strong defense or as a set up for your multiple attacks. Hope this helps.
     
  5. Mono

    Mono Member

    Is there a difference at all?

    Since our MA is based on Ernestos Teachings before Kombaton (until 1996) and Remy Teachings after that, we do have quite a broad foundation (speaking for the German Arnis Federation / DAV).

    But anyhow - from my understanding the "abanico" is first of all a METHOD of Striking - not a specific Move.
    It is the Types of Strikes you execute by twistung your Forearm in a Prone/Supine Movement.

    Then there are loads of Drills to practice the Abanico in offensive as well as defensive ways (and using different Ranges).

    After that, there are even more ways of applying the Abanico in Combat / Self Defense as offensive as well as defensive tools.

    As of today I found 14 Basic ways of executing an abanico wich can all be applied at 3 different Ranges and most of them in offensive and defensive ways.

    I have lernd at least 3 "drills"/"methods" for "Abanico-Corto", 2 for Abanico-Largo, 3 basic "Abanico Striking-Drills", an 8. and a 10. Count Abanico Pattern Drill, the Abanico Double Action, some material from the Abanico-Tres Puntas - and probably some more stuff I forgott to mention concerning Abanico drills...

    Every Teacher / Master within the FMA uses the same Basic tool (in this Case Abanico) and teaches it or applies it in a different way - according to personal Preferences I suppose.

    Its our task (as Students of the Art) to understand the Movement and find out what training method suits us best to meke the moves "work" for us in Application...

    But thats just my Point of view.

    I am looking forward to any opinions!

    (Sorry for any spelling or lingual errors - I am not a native speaker...)

    Yours,
    Philipp "Mono" Wolf
    Lakan III DAV/IMAFP
     
  6. armas

    armas Junior Member

    It does not really matter. But it was a technical question. Like you noted all the drills you learned. That's technical.

    To me the difference was only the response GM Ernesto experienced from the students of GM Remy as they went to his seminars or joined his camps. You see if they would not have compared how the teachings were done. It would not have mattered. When Ernesto shows a move and calls it out. The students from Remy would say that's not how remy taught us. Or What Ernesto was teaching was not modern Arnis. This is what I have observed and the frustration of GM Ernesto. I am not trying to step on anybody's toes here. To tell you the truth the only ones who recognized the similarities were those who studied with both at the beginning of these Masters evolution.

    Just my opinion.
     
  7. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Everyone I know who has studied with both has commented on the strong similarities!
     
  8. kindred

    kindred New Member

    i think the main dissimelarity in remys and ernestos art is that remy toured and picked up some great stuff from other martial art masters that he toured with through the states i.e wally jay and such ..not down grading ernestos skills at all he is a great martial artist with a formidable arsenal of moves and knowledge but from viewing remys and ernestos art that seems to be what stands out ,
     
  9. Datu Dieter

    Datu Dieter Junior Member

    I have trained wit a lot of the old Masters, who sturide wirt GM Remy in te 60s and who preserved the teaching of that time along with their own innovation and individual style.
    I cannot comment on the Kombatan of today, but Ernestos Modern Arnis in the 80s was closer to GM Remys Modern Arnis of the 60s and 70s as to GM Remys Mdoern Arnis of the end of the 90s. GM Remy went through a long way of evolutions and changes in his Modern Arnis.

    In one sentence, I think Kombatan is bropader, with a lot of weaposns, that GM Remy did not teach, but GM Remys Arnis was much deeper in the areas he taught.
    GM Ernestos freestyle cannot compare with the depth of GM Remys Tapi-Tapi at all.

    Regards


    Dieter Kn├╝ttel
    Datu and Senior Master of Modern Arnis
     
  10. armas

    armas Junior Member

    I agree with Dieter with the in depth freestyle of GM Remy. I got a better understanding of his indepth views when it came to this training. I would watch in awe when it came to this aspect. Bar none this was the best aspect of his single stick teaching.
     

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