PTK and DTK.

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by franci1911, Jul 18, 2007.

  1. franci1911

    franci1911 Member

    This was a private message that I sent to Arnisador earlier today. And reflects my thought on the subject of deleting a posting by Grand Tuhon Gaje for defending his family system.

    You are right Arnisador and You have made my point Since you as Moderators cannot be the judge of who is and who isn't a legitamate I am here to help. You were not there I was. From the standpoint of PTK vs. DTK I do know the truth. I don't think Grand Tuhon was disrespectful just being truthful, honest and to the point.

    If I could be able to quote exactly from the post I would however it has been closed and is now unavailable for direct comment.



  2. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I hope people will continue to discuss this matter. It's certainly a fair topic, and I have no doubt that franci1911 (and of course Mr. Gaje) is correct when he says he knows much more about it than I do. I just hope that no one expects FMATalk to take an official position on it. We weren't there, and have no way to judge!

    -FMAT Admin
  3. viejo

    viejo New Member

    U really know the truth, or some sides truth???

  4. franci1911

    franci1911 Member

  5. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I understood Mr. Tortal to say that Dekiti is an alternative pronunciation of Pekiti. But, I'm not sure I understood that quite right.
  6. franci1911

    franci1911 Member

    That's news to everyone that I know. Arnisador, it appears to me that in my research he came up with that idea of an ALTERNATIVE pronunciation to validate the Existance of Dekiti. It is not and was not considered an alternative name nor was it considered the family System. We can go back and forth on this subject and I am willing to do so with you. I enjoy the challange and the conversation.
  7. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Thank you! Unfortunately, I can't hold up my end of the conversation very well--I know so little about either system! This is something I recall Mr. Tortal saying at a seminar in Terre Haute, IN about 5-ish years ago, but I may have misunderstood him at the time.
  8. Matt Lim

    Matt Lim New Member

    I also heard directly from tuhon Nene that dekiti is a correction of the term pekiti since pekiti is supposed to mean close yet literally means thrust.
  9. franci1911

    franci1911 Member

    The art originated in Negros which is Illongo. Where Tagalog is in the north, region of Luzon. Tuhon Nene may be manufacturing the term Dekiti. When this system was founded in 1897 as Pekiti-Tirsia. At the passing of GrandTuhon (Tay Dadoy) Conrado Tortal, GrandTuhon Leopoldo Tortal Gaje jr. inherited the legacy of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali Family system. There was never a discussion of Pekiti being the wrong termanology used. If Tuhon Nene wants to create a name so be it. But it is not, was not, and will not be considered the Family Fighting System of the Tortals.

    Dekiti = about to get close (dedekit), this is a Tagalog term

    Pekiti = which means close in already, is a Illongo term
  10. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Is Ilongo written in the Latin alphabet like Tagalog is? That would settle the P vs. D issue.
  11. franci1911

    franci1911 Member

    We are not talking about emphasis on the root language in the Latin. We are discussing the regional difference of origin. These are two totally seperate issues. The fact is the word Dekiti comes from a region that was well North (Luzon) from where the Tortal family lineage exhisted. If your family was from Negros and the dialect in Negros is Ilongo. Why then would a family member turn around and use a Tagalog term (Dekiti).

    Examine the two words again:

    Pekiti means: CLOSE IN ALREADY
    Dekiti means: ABOUT TO GET CLOSE derived from DEDEKIT
  12. truth_be_told

    truth_be_told -== Banned ==-

    mind boggling question

    how 'Dekiti' be labelled a Tagalog word or term
    when it derived from another Tagalog word but no exact such word in Tagalog ?

    this same like say 'arnisador' is Spanish word since 'arnisador' derived from 'arnis' and derived from Spanish ?

    think arnisador is English word to me?

    or worst say 'Arnis' is a German word because there's a town in Germany by that name ? coincidence or what?

    is there tagalog word call ' dekit' or 'malapit' ?
    excuse my faint tagalog memory but no exact 'dekiti' word ?

    shud we leave this to linguist instead ? no ?

    no then perhaps we might ask how 'Kali' is derived since PTK claimed 'Kali' being the unadulterated indigenous original art ? :Eyecrazy:

    but ccording to Cebuano Eskrima book research project, there no such 'Kali' word used in southern phil in past et all :toilet:
  13. tanod

    tanod New Member

    "IF" this is a family matters leave it not i'll just shut up now. :)
  14. franci1911

    franci1911 Member

    Dekiti is DERIVED from the word DEDKIT. But we are not talking about linguistics here. I'll try and make this as basic for YOU to understand as possible, (my sarcasim not intended or meant for everyone on the Forum) The Tortal Family came from the Negros area where the dialect is Ilongo. In that area the word or term Pekiti was used by GrandTuon Conrado Tortals. He did not use Dekiti in the Family name system because:


    Dekiti: It is a word or term in Tagalog meaning; about to get close from its derivative DEDEKIT.

    PEKITI meaning close in already implies that you are close in already. If you base your fighting system on a word that means about to get close YOU are missing the point on Close Quater or INFIGHTING.


    In the region in which GrandTuhon Conrado Tortal lived they spoke Ilongo and would not use a Tagalog phrasiology or language to describe the FAMILY SYSTEM OF PEKITI-TIRSIA KALI.


    Your agruement is out of center because - this is not meant to be a language explination more than it is REGIONAL.


    Kali was a term used more within the southern regions of the Philippines and we can bring up so many reason for using the term KALI. They way some of you people think and express yourselves here the Pilipino people did not have any form of fighting system before they discovered The Spanish when Magelian lost his head. They could not have called it ESKRIMA OR ARNIS because prior to the SPANISH Influence those words did not exist to the people of that area.


    I speak on behalf of GrandTuhon Leo Gaje Jr. at times because:

    I have been learning and training from him for more than 30 years. As well I am very involved with his family and as close to his family as a Brother or Uncle would be. And believe me if I would be speaking out of line GrandTuhon Gaje would let me know.

    Truth Be Told you are trying to make an arguement from something you no very little about.

    I am not questioning Tuhon Jerson Nene Tortals' ability what we are talking about here is what was in the MINDSET and IDEALISM of GRANDTUHON CONRADO TORTAL within the Family System of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2007
  15. franci1911

    franci1911 Member

    One correction Dekiti is Derived from the word Dedekit (sorry for my mis-spelling).

  16. Ventura

    Ventura -== Banned ==-

    As I understand Philippine dialects...

    Dekit = stick as in stick like glue.

    Pekit = close as in close your eyes.

    Someone saying dekiti to me means a method of sticking to your opponent.

    Someone saying pekiti to me means a method of getting up close to your opponent.

    Dedekit means he/she/it is going to stick.

    Pepekit means he/she/it is going to close.

    Personally I learned the spelling of these words as dikit and pikit. They are common words in Tagalog.

    For example I could say:

    Pinapikit ko siya = I made him blink (he closed his eyes).

    Dikit ng dikit yung babe sa akin = The girl was stuck on me.

    My own understanding of it is that this pekit and dekit are two interrelated aspects of the art of Conrado Tortal. It is strategy of closing and sticking to your opponent. However the official name given to heir of the system, GT Leo T. Gaje Jr. is Pekiti (Tirsia).

    Sticking after closing in is a secondary aspect of the whole strategy. You can't stick without being able to close in. This is how I understand why Pekiti is the obvious first choice to name the art. This is why I believe Pekiti Tirsia is the real art of the Conrado Tortal along with the fact that GT Gaje is a man of honor and integrity whom I believe to always speak the truth.

    If you think critically and follow logic...

    There is no dekit without first getting pekit. Meaning to say... you can't stick without getting close first.

    Getting close (Pekiti) is primary. Sticking (Dekiti) is secondary.

    Again this is just my own understanding of the language and general strategy in order of importance.
  17. franci1911

    franci1911 Member


    Thank you for elaborating further on my explination. Your explination is very thorough.
  18. Far Walkers Moon

    Far Walkers Moon New Member

    if this is a family debate maybe it should be doe within the family not over open forums but if it is to be done over open forums then should not all or both members that are the subject of the debate be the only ones haveing a say with no outside comments fron others

    Now a question was asked
    and i want to answere:
    yes I will learn almost any technique if it works and I really do not care who invented or came up with it or how the person showing me ie learned it. By the way how do you steal a technique?
    would I wear a stolen watch most likely not if I knew it was stolen
    would I eat food that was stolen YES and I have but i am alive because of it and my family was feed because of it eating food to live or survive has nothing to do with the infighting or political goals of any organisation unless your trying to say that a technique used by others that also a technique of your organisation will cause you to starve
  19. Matt Lim

    Matt Lim New Member

    In European fencing there is a term called piquete tercia. Another one is the German hammerterz which is employed the same way. Coincidence?
  20. truth_be_told

    truth_be_told -== Banned ==-

    mabuhay Matt

    thats a good one. perhaps pekiti tirsia name came from German :viking:
    like arnis is named after a german town. :biggrinbo

    just got off a forum phil folks who knows illongo dialect and they find

    Dekit or dekiti can be termed as near(already close) or getting near.
    Can also be 'close range' in MA contex.

    but 'Pekit' or 'Pekiti' as used to 'Close eyes' / 'shut eyes' seems ackward
    to use to mean 'close by' in MA context by illlongo speakers

    but then again i no linguist nor authority. and neither is franci1911

    so by layman's standad or non Ma peeps
    wud u use 'getting near/near' or 'Close eyes/shut eyes' to meant close range?

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