"Prison Arts"

Discussion in 'General' started by loki09789, Nov 8, 2005.

  1. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    A question was brought up in another thread in the Balintawak section about prison arts.

    I know that there was a 'modern' art called Jailhouse Rock that was popular to discuss for a while. Usually in association with the Lethal Weapon movies.

    It basically consisted of how to effectively fight while having your hands and/or feet shackled.

    Similarly the art of Caporiea was a slave art that developed because they hands were shackled.

    Does anyone know of any other 'prison' arts that have become 'systemized' or at least been given a particular name.

    Surviving Edged Weapons by Palladin Press has footage of inmates teaching inmates knife/shank/shiv applications, there is a story in Doce Pares of a euro fencer and a Saveedra cross training in prison, and there is the Jailhouse Rock system as a modern example.

    Even, to a degree, you could stretch the Gladiatorial fighting styles as 'prison' arts because they were not training to fight in 'combat' like military operations or skirmishes but were training as slaves to fight for entertainment (bloody and gruesome at times, but entertainment none the less).
  2. G22

    G22 -== Banned ==-



    Last edited: Nov 8, 2005
  3. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

  4. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

  5. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    The following info on TaeKwon-Do (as spelled in the source) is part of a piece written about Gen. Choi Hong Hi (System Founder).

    "With the outbreak of World War II, the author was forced to enlist in the Japanese army through no volition of his own. While at his post in Pyongyang, North Korea, the author was implicated as the planner of the Korean Independence Movement and interned at a Japanese prison during his eight month pretrial examination.

    While in prison, to alleviate the boredom and keep physically fit, Choi began practicing this art in the solitude of his cell. In a short time, his cellmate and jailer became students of his. Eventually, the whole prison courtyard became one gigantic gymnasium.

    The liberation in August 1945 spared Choi from an imposed seven year prison sentence. Following his release, the ex-prisoner journeyed to Seoul where he organized a student soldier's party. In January of the following year, Choi was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the new South Korean army, the "Launching Pad" for putting Taekwon-Do into a new orbit. "

    So it seems that his time in prison was partially spent studying and refining his art.

    Now this isn't as dramatic as Gen. Choi using his art to protect himself while in prison, but his time there was spent practicing and instructing, so it has an impact.
  6. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

  7. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    From my understanding, GM Bobby Tabimina, learned from others, and learned the grouped methodolgy, and then when he trained with GM Bacon, he learned as Bacon presented the art.

    The story I had was that GM Bacon was ashamed and visible upset when those close to him would visit, so many of them did not, to not cause him pain.
  8. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    I would have to ask him directly about the progression of training, but it wouldn't make sense that he mastered the art simply by visiting V.Bacon. He would have to have trained into the late 70's though. I don't know about any details that He would have that none of the others would have because of changes V.Bacon made while in prison though.

    As to the visitation could also be preservation. Bacon could have told them or they could have decided for themselves that staying low key was wise to keep themselves from falling under the governmental microscope. Politics in PI have and are been far more turbulent than here in the states and far more dramatic in consequences if your on the wrong side of an issue (read, lack political clout). Not a judgement, I wasn't there.

    From the information, Bacon's role as instructor and chance were the things that kept his prison sentence from being any worse.
  9. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    While I do not doubt that some may have stayed away for political reasons. But I have talked to someone who told me about the pain of the situation, and that he respected that.
  10. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    Does anyone know any hard dates for VBacon's time served? When did M.Ted Buot hand back the school to VBacon after his release, or did he stay on as primary instructor? Did he get any of the changes that Bobby Tabimina is alluding to in his explanation of the Balintawak that he learned from VBacon?
  11. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    Does anyone know about this book?

    I remember a Palladin Press book about knife fighting that was based on stuff from Fulsom Prison. I only saw it in a web search briefly and can't recreate the search path because I was just surfing.

    Is anyone familar with this book? If so, what was the title/author info?
  12. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

  13. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

  14. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Sorry, by "have it at home" I mean that it's in Indiana while I'm still here in New Mexico for 6 more months.
  15. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    I can wait. I have no intention of actually training in a prison bases system.

    That would look good in a court room defense after I used force to fend off an attacker.

    "But Your Honor, I learned that stuff from Fulsom PRison!"
  16. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    Manong Ted taught while GM Bacon was around. When GM Bacon would show up, Manong Ted would hand him the stick he was using and let GM Bacon teach. When he was done, Manong Ted would then take back over.

    As to Bobby Tabimina, I do not think that GM Bobby Tabimina and Manong Ted Buot have meet, but a family member ( cousin ) and student of Manong Ted's was over in the PI during this time frame, and said that none of the new stuff was anything different then what GM Bacon had taught before. But to contradict him publically, about the new is not my intent. It was new to him and new because of who and how he trained before he worked with GM Bacon. He had trained in the grouped methodology before hand. Also some peope grab sticks (* It works *), yet, GM Bacon and also Manong Ted, teach to not grab (* as do some others *), to improve your sensitivity with the stick. It also opens up a couple of different moves, that are not possible when you grab the stick.
  17. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    Good info. So, after GM Bacon was released from prison (dates served?), he did not take over the school again? A great sign of respect that the junior let's the senior take the stick/responsibility when the senior is on the floor.

    Not grabbing the stick. Sounds like a logical technical and tactical practice given the blade influence reality of live blades in the Phillipines. It also makes sense considering that GM Bacon spent a good number of years training with a daggar in his 'weak hand' from the Saavedra/L.Fencing Club/Doce Pares years. Teaching people to automatically grab would make for some bad cuts in a real street fight.

    As the practice of stick dueling became more common and possibly formalized (meaning that a stick duel would be with sticks primarily, with set meeting times and locations, much like the Honor duels in Euro/Aristocratic fashion were) to a degree, grabbing would be a logical evolution - and people wouldn't be losing fingers when they did it.

    Tabimina's transition from the junior "Grand Masters" and evenually training with GM Bacon sounds like classic Balinatawak progression. From what I understand, all of the students that stuck around followed that progression. Seems that GM Bacon was really the Finishing School after all the other training was established. It might not have been as necessary to talk about if M. Ted was already in the building, teaching and working directly with GM Bacon.

    As has been mentioned before, the differences in Balintawaks (grouped, ungrouped, or 'new' or 'old') aren't in the techniques or tactics but the instructional system it seems. People that have had exposure to both say that there is no real difference between them at the technical level. There seems to be a difference in how Balintawak groups get to the same end results, but the end is still the same. That is good. People have the chance to find the learning style that suites them best that way. I have never studied the purely ungrouped version, but from direct instruction and watching watching Videos of B.Taboada's instructional system, there is a lot of 'randomness' in his approach as well. "Totally Random" is not effective when you try to teach on a larger scale than one on one though. Conversely, there is no need to 'group' or organize anything when you are one on one with someone all the time. Neither approach is empirically superior. They are just more appropriate for different instructional settings.

    How long had M. Ted trained with GM Bacon before the sentence? Had to be a while if he was entrusted with the whole school.
  18. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    There are few things I would like to point out.

    There is also the modifed (* GM Moncal et al *) who did have other or additional or different techniques.

    By Grabbing you do change the technique, and possible loose some options, so this is an issue on how one trains.

    I never once referred to anyone as a Junior GM. If they use the title GM, I have no problem calling them by it. I know you meant nothing by this, and refer to the Senior Status as in time in the art, I just wanted to make sure that others who might read this, understand as well.

    One has to really feel the difference between monitoring the hand and the stick to understand, and also as well as the grab and the feedback it gives the "listening" opponent.

    If anyone gets the chance, to train with any of the organizations and the seniors of that system, it should be good no matter the approach or the differences.
  19. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    The grabbing element, the way I learned it at least, was more about learning how to lead the drills and not so much about what you apply. Of course you do learn to apply them as well.

    That by no means that the only type of hand to stick contact was grabbing. Monitoring contact was/is there as well.

    Balintawak is Balintawak (in the broadest sense)....train in any of the versions and stay with it long enough and I imagine you'll be at the same end point. Train with who ever you can, learn from them all. Even if it is just to learn what you wouldn't want to do, it is exposure to other ways that someone might come at you too.
  20. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

    As per the Balintawak portion of this thread, I have a couple of comments to make. I was at Manong Ted’s today for my private lessons during which I verified a few things so I could post this on FMAT tonight. As far as prison life affecting Anciong’s Balintawak during his incarceration, Manong Ted informed me that he saw no changes in his teaching style or curriculum. Ted was training and teaching with Bacon before, during and after his prison term. He said that there was no change in the system during this time.

    Addressing Tabimina’s updated classes from Anciong. Tabimina was a student of Villisan. Villisan taught his own version of Anciong’s art. When Tabimina did his training with Bacon, he told him it was an updated version based on his source of material. In essence Bacon taught him the way it was supposed to be done, not the way Villisan taught it.

    As far as Balintawak being Balintawak, I have to disagree with you. Each person expresses it their own way, adding and subtracting things based on individual interpretations. Case in point, GM Taboada has added many things that didn’t exist in Balintawak: Abaniquos, Sinawalis, even an unarmed fighting section. I have had the pleasure of training with him around 1990 or so in North Carolina and I have had the opportunity to hang out with him at one of the trade shows which gave me the opportunity to watch him and his students perform. It is very obvious that his roots are in Balintawak but are not restricted to it in this expression of martial arts.

    Now that being said, this is my Friendly Admin Warning:

    This "Prison Arts" thread has quickly become a "Balintawak" thread, not much unlike the one that has been closed. If the thread continues to go in this direction, I will be forced to take matters in to my own hands.

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