Piper System.

Discussion in 'Misc. Knife Arts' started by arnisador, Jul 25, 2006.

  1. William

    William Mongrel Combative Arts

    Thanks for posting that.

    I don't mean to hijack the thread, but in the vein of Eskrimakaliarnis's post, this is one I posted a number of years ago on another forum that touches on the same point.



    William

    Open Eyes

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I still come across people with the flippant attitude that defending against a blade is as easy as just kicking it out of someone's hand. I'll always remember the TKD instructor who proudly claimed that his 15 yr. olds could accurately kick a knife out of the hand as a realistic reliable defense. This type of attitude is the very reason that I started this thread in the first place. People who think that dealing with a blade is so easy, or just a matter of doing technique A, B, or C. You have no margin for error in going against a bladed attack. The bottom line is that you have to train the best you can, as realistically as possible to increase your %'s of successfully countering an attack. There are no certainties.

    One thing that really helped open my eyes a long time ago was seeing a Coroners book that had hundreds of pictures of people that had been killed with different types of edged weapons/tools. Seeing what a sharp implement, even a small knife, can do to the human body is an eye opener. Slashing attacks can be gruesome and open up ghastly wounds immediately. Thrusts often just look like little slits, but do major damage internally.

    When I come across this type of attitude, I'll casually ask them if they want to try kicking the blade from my hand. I'll start out with my blade hand forward and let them try. Of course I don't just hold it still out there for them to target, I use my footwork to move, feint, and gain angle on them all the while keeping my blade moving in changing patterns. At first I'll just stay outside and try to get them to kick. Every kick that comes into my range is either slashed our stuck with a thrust. After I have tenderized the leg a bit, I'll move in behind a kick and close to finish. Sometimes I'll get the response, "well, you know how to use a knife, the average person doesn't". To which I say; "Ok, this time I'll attack in the way that you'll most likely encounter out in the real world". Then when they turn to go back on the floor I run up behind them and "shank" them a bunch of times on the back and sides of the body or neck. Not scientific, but a knife attack your most likely to encounter. This usually throws them off and they start thinking that I'm crazier than I really am...almost. After they have re-gained their composure, I'll also show them that not all knife attacks come with the blade held out front. We will go again and this time I have my live hand forward and the blade to the rear and close to my body. This doesn't present a weapon for you to target or to immediately try to gain control of. You have to get past my live hand which will be sweeping, grabbing, trapping, gouging, or eye jabbing as I enter to distract and/or clear the way for my blade to come pumping in. My point is that I want them to start looking at the knife in a more realistic manner. Not just some innocuous implement that they think is so easy to knock out of an attackers hand.
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I pulled this (blade to the rear...training blade) on a traditional martial arts BB co-worker a few years ago. He was so fixed on the blade that I just reached up and put my live hand in front of his face blocking his vision, and then hit the vitals.

    Again, the point is not to demoralize them, but to get them to start thinking realistically about facing bladed weapons.

    [/FONT]
     
  2. tim_stl

    tim_stl Junior Member

    can someone explain to me why an 'ambush system' like piper has so many snaps, stomps, slaps, and rhythmic arm and body movements that draw so much attention?



    tim
     
  3. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Easy Tim..it's cool. LOL..I believe at the heart of Piper lies the ambush. With that being said when people codify a system or movements from said system they will naturally gear it differently. Perhaps the rhythmic movements come more from personal expression as opposed to what the crux of the sytstem intended. I would think they, the Piper lads would have a better breakdown of it.


    www.seamok.com
     
  4. tim_stl

    tim_stl Junior Member

    didn't mean to sound derogatory with my post, it was an honest question.



    tim
     
  5. William

    William Mongrel Combative Arts


    I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable about the system will respond, but in the meantime, I'll throw a bone out there....

    My thought is that by the time those "attention grabbing" movements are evident, you've already been hit multiple times. They won't be doing that before the attack, but during (if at all).
    As far as bystanders...if someone is attacking you in public like that....

    A.) They don't give a rats ass if people notice.

    B.) The victim's reaction/screaming will give the situation away anyway.


    Just my $.02....worth what you paid for it. :)




    William
     
  6. Worm Dirt

    Worm Dirt New Member

    Taken from the Piper website:

    "What makes Piper so dangerous?
    Always, its level of intent coupled with its unpredictable nature. It is a study of a killing method. You’d have to be exposed to our criminal element to fully understand the mentality behind it. This thing is battle-tested. Think about this - the Filipino Islands have roughly twice our population, but only about an 8th of our violent crime rate."


    First of all, if I did study this "system"... and did use a knife to "defend" myself I sure wouldn't want THIS to come up in the civil litigation or criminal proceedings that followed.

    I guess our American criminals aren't "violent" enough to gain an understanding of the rather simplistic act of shoving something sharp into another human being until they stop breathing and no longer have a pulse? I can reference some neighborhoods that would likely dispel that pretty quickly.

    "Is Piper different to the Filipino Martial Arts knife concepts?
    Yes. There are extensive differences. It would be dangerous to attempt most of the things that one finds commonly within the Filipino systems (parries and knife stripping are out). Most of what one would learn in FMA does not appear at all in Piper. Piper is also not a historical legacy, it is today’s reality."

    I personally find this amusing as the youtube video Arnisador so kindly provided http://youtube.com/watch?v=L54s2fUDfVA looks a lot like Filipino knife method to me.

    "we model a bona-fide bad guy and provide the ’enemy’ side of the equation to test yourself against."

    And all "bad guys" are going to follow this particular method? "Every" time?

    "We were tired of being mugged - and didn’t want to be stabbed."

    So how many times "have" they been stabbed? How many times has this "method" of ambush based knife killing been proven as an adequate defense against those evil knifers pacing the streets?

    Conclusively, I don't much appreciate seeing Filipino martial arts degraded as part of a marketing scheme. Let's face it, having that system with it's self proclaimed killing methology in any way attached to YOUR name is legal suicide once the lawyers go to work on you. And to TEACH that system screams liability. At least here in the Obama nation where you can get sued for serving hot coffee without a warning label.

    Furthermore, the system or "method" is not relevant. The practitioner makes the art. Not the other way around.
     
  7. I find it dangerous to make sweeping comments about these kind of things.

    "Is Piper Different to FMA"

    All FMA's have similarities and differences. There is nothing new here just two people and a knife. South African, Filipino, Eskimo....

    Unless you've studied ALL FMA (an impossibility) you can't make that kind of generalization.

    Having said that I did enjoy the vids and the movements shown. I hope the group continues to prosper.

    Simon.
     
  8. William

    William Mongrel Combative Arts

    Just a couple of points....

    The fact that one trains in any martial art, especially a weapons based art like the FMA's is going to allow a lawyer to have a field day if they want to go after you. That's not just reserved to this particular system. As an aside, there is an instructor here in the states who created a system out of a couple of different FMA systems who uses terms to describe the partitioners and the system that a lawyer would have a fun time presenting to a jury. We all train hoping to avoid serious confrontation, but if god forbid we ever do, litigation is a real possibility to follow. Unless you can hide all the training you've had, a lawyer trying to work you over is possible no matter what you've trained in....but I can admit the description of the system would make their work easier.

    From what little I've seen of their movements, I see similarities to FMA, but I also see some differences in the originators movements....subtle, but present.

    I'm not saying it's better or worse than anything else out there, but I see some differences that should be taken into account when thinking about having to deal with that style of attack.


    FWIW,
    William
     
  9. Navadisha

    Navadisha New Member

    I personally find this amusing as the youtube video Arnisador so kindly provided http://youtube.com/watch?v=L54s2fUDfVA looks a lot like Filipino knife method to me.


    Thas not a Piper guy.
     
  10. Worm Dirt

    Worm Dirt New Member

    I too enjoy anything I can find that is blade based and that isn't outright garbage. I personally believe that there is something useful that can be taken from all legitimate systems or schools.
     
  11. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    Oh C'mon

    We both know that this piper or south african knife system came from the same source of people that you and I trained with. :sword2:

    Bill
     
  12. pinoyronin

    pinoyronin New Member

    knife attacks

    After seeing what the piper guys do or looking at any attacks, ambushes with bladed weapons it makes you rethink what could you really do in that moment of chaos. You have a lot of viewpoints out there that we all have looked at.

    At times i feel one has to wipe the slate clean and re look at things.
     
  13. Worm Dirt

    Worm Dirt New Member

    Got any videos? I'd love to see the real thing.
     
  14. Fan the Madman

    Fan the Madman Circles with Knives

    [video=youtube;TPJ65araum4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPJ65araum4[/video]

    Some video from a Piper Seminar held recently in San Diego.
     
  15. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Interesting, thanks! Definitely looks like a "firstest with the mostest" approach.
     
  16. Fan the Madman

    Fan the Madman Circles with Knives

    That evaluation is consistent with the information in the Piper ebook. And in all honesty I think there is alot to be said for knowing a bit about "just how bad it could be". Does that yield the ability to defend against it? I don't think so.. but it certainly gives even more incentive to AVOID a determined knife attack, just in case we need more incentive haha.

    I have to say the one possible direct use I can think of for this system is a situation where the in-close predator has a gun, is about to draw it, and has lethal intent. But really that's the only plausible scenario I can imagine where this kind of methodical insanity has any ethical use likely in the modern world, other than learning it for cautionary/educational purposes.
     
  17. geezer

    geezer Member

    No that's Bobbe Edmonds -- he used to post on here a lot. Definitely an FMA background with some Piper added in? Heck, don't ask me. I find knives pretty damned scary to start with... and that last Piper clip from San Diego was insane.
     
  18. EliasPFS

    EliasPFS New Member

    the guys that hosted it Librefighting, alslo do some scary knife work.
     
  19. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    The Piper lads are good blokes..I speak with them ever so often.Good humble folk. IMHO anyone wielding a knife for killing is scarey . .skilled or not, and in most cases unskilled and demented is the spookiest. That's why God invented S& W . .LOL . . having been on the bad end of 2 knife altercations I cand efintiely respect that blade in any hand . skilled or not!
     

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