Piper System.

Discussion in 'Misc. Knife Arts' started by arnisador, Jul 25, 2006.

  1. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I don't know this method! I need an English version of the website.

    I keep hearing about South African systems, most notably Piper.
     
  2. grapp81

    grapp81 Junior Member

    it would be very interesting know more about this "piper" system...
     
  3. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    There's been talk of it on Eskrima Digest, for example.
     
  4. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Piper (Seen on MT).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhpAsE8z6JI&NR

    Looks to be big on distracting and controlling with the empty hand. From here:

     
  5. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    Don't rely on the videos that are on the piper website.. I suggest that you contact Lloyd and Nigel who are the moderators on the piper website for any questions that you have concerning the system.. When I was stateside, I had the opportunity to experience a little of the south african knife by a close acquaintance who lived in that region for a couple of years.. It is a system that I was really glad to get the introduction, but at no means am I an instructor of this system.. I would defer all questions to the above individuals if you really want a good understanding ( as much as you can get via keyboard Communications from active practitioners and guardians of the system..

    Just my .02 Pesos

    Bill
    Defensive Tactics Guam
     
  6. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Admin. Note.

    I copied these posts from another thread.

    -Arnisador
    -FMAT Admin
     
  7. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

  8. tellner

    tellner New Member

    I've had a small amount of exposure to the system via Mushtaq Ali. It uses rhythm and time in ways which I have not seen in anything except other African or Afro-Latin traditions. It's not a self-defense system. It's a method for taking someone apart with a knife and could more properly be called a knife-assault system.

    A lot of people whose opinion I deeply respect say that it throws a real monkeywrench into almost all of the knife defense they know. Their experience spans an awful lot of the best stuff out there in the South, Southeast and East Asian martial arts. It may not be the Unholy Ichor of Great Cthulhu, but it's worth taking a close look at. There's a lot of very worthwhile stuff there. A lot of White guys will have trouble with it. Most of us have no rhythm. And most of the rest are afraid that if we actually move our hips other guys will think we're homosexual :)
     
  9. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Throwing both hands at you at once, split high-and-low, when they've been changing hands has got to be very confusing. You'd almost have to mirror them and try to defend both at once until you knew where the blade was.

    Defending unarmed against a knife is always a long shot, and this seems designed to reduce those odds yet again.
     
  10. sneaky

    sneaky New Member

    Howdy,

    I have spoken with the guys at the piper website and I believe the system to be an effective assultive method which after all is how an attacker will come after you.

    The key to dealing with any system like this is simple ...dont be there!!!

    Awareness and street smarts are king, But.. if assulted in the manner of the piper system the best I think you could do is to close in hard under a defensive structure based cover(if empty handed) and try to control the weapon arm/hand , wrap it up and take them down , trying to mirror their movement wont get you too far, crash in wrap the arm/hand and follow up.

    At the end of the day all the distraction stuff only matters to a point, if they want to cut or stab you they have to extend the arm or step in, just like any other system out there, human movement is universal, no matter if you are black , white or orange etc

    Look at Jerry wetzels work here or Ray floros, the dog brothers "die less often" dvd may help here also.

    ATB,

    Jim
     
  11. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    Indeed.
     
  12. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Yes, I haven't seen much about defense from it yet...but them the best defense can be a good offense!
     
  13. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    I do not view it as dealing with a system. Your dealing with an individual or individuals. System be damned. We all bleed and we all can be got. To program oneself to beat a system is IMHO placing yourself deep behind the 8-Ball. There are top notch players who are king in training but when the blood starts to fly and the screaming starts they fall apart like school girls at a Jonas Brothers concert! Where is the system then? No Where! And YES...Not being there is KEY!


    Agreed...but theory is just that, theory until put to the test under fire. If assaulted in this manner I would be under the guise that your soon to be toast. I think a lot of people see assaults as this mono y mono duel entity. If someone gets to you with a knife in any manner your chances of doing much are slim and none. My suggest would be to create distance, somehow. Having survived a brutal blade attack I can testify that it just doesn't go down like a lot of people think. Crashing in becomes hard when your cut up, or in my case have a lung punctured. Wrapping anything up or following up is extremely hard when you can't breath, panic is setting in, there is blood everywhere and the goblins of disorientation are creeping through your mind.

    True....but I do not believe Piper is a dueling system where you can react to action. Having talked to the South African lads they led me to believe that it is a pure ambush system. And when one is ambushed it doesn't matter what extends, or how one steps in. Your under fire NOW, your hurt NOW, your bleeding NOW..etc.etc.etc...In this setting so many things are jerking the stimuli....unless one is superman things can go south quickly. In my case I was fortunate that there were other bouncers around to subdue (another word for crushing) the assailant and stop him from inflicting further damage.

    A knife is an ambush weapon folks...and I firmly believe that PIPER is designed as such. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that AMBUSH is the preferred method of operandi when it comes to blades!
     
  14. Fan the Madman

    Fan the Madman Circles with Knives

    Well if you want to learn to run really fast then it would be best to get seriously scared as h*ll. I know something like Piper is the sort of nightmare I want a shotgun, some distance and some decent cover if I'm going to try and handle it.

    I'm sure the Piper guys are very nice and all (most serious MA types are good dudes).. but their movements scare the whiz out of me :D

    Survey says BRING GUNS.. LOTS OF GUNS.
     
  15. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Fan I agree...when in doubt, get your pistol out. lolol
     
  16. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Just to echo some of the points already made:

    I seem to recall that in one of the earliest descriptions of Piper that I read a South African police officer was quoted as saying that basically, "there is no defense - we just shoot them." If, on any given day, you're genuinely worried about whether or not some faceless stranger is going to eat you for lunch ("Hmm, I guess my chances are about 50/50 today..."), you're probably carrying a carbine and walking around with like-minded friends. For the rest of us that live in the normal world, a modicum of common sense is about where to be and who to be with is about all we can count on.

    I like what I've seen of Piper but let's face it, there are several knife cultures that figured out a long time ago how to ambush an unarmed innocent with a knife - and they're generally no better or worse than another in terms of how they slice and dice you.

    Here's a thought exercise: what if I came up with an amazingly efficient and hitherto unknown "system" of "gun fighting" wherein I walked up to unaware people and just shot them in the face? Are you going to find a way to deal with my "system" or learn how to recognize me for the psychotic that I am? Rather than engaging me it's probably better to keep your distance behind a longer barrel.

    I just thought of a slogan for the above: "Superior knife fighters create superior gun fighters."

    O.K. - out of the arm chair, gotta go to work...

    Best,

    Steve
     
  17. Navadisha

    Navadisha New Member

    Just to clarify, the Piper guys created the system as a way to codify and expose other people to what is out there that they might encounter.
    They were aware of it and scared as hell.
    But they decided to study it instead of ignore it.
     
  18. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    That makes sense! Still, I agree that if someone is dead-set on ambushing you with a knife and you can't stay away from them, you're in a bad situation.
     
  19. William

    William Mongrel Combative Arts

    Very true, an that’s the issue. The majority of knife attacks happen in that manner. From the outside it may appear to be an ambush and kill based system, but I would bet there’s a bit more to it. Try to learn blade from a purely defensive stand point and you’re only learning one side of the coin. Imo, it’s tough to understand what you’re dealing with from that mind set. In order to have a better chance to effectively counter a bladed attack, you also have to understand the offensive side and mindset (and even then there are no certainties). One instructor I had exposure to had been incarcerated and worked with us on some of the tactics and situational mind set of that environment. It wasn‘t pretty and consisted mainly of various ways to ambush and pump. It was a good to experience and the material really made you think about some of the tactics and perceptions of blade work that I’ve been exposed to past and present.

    Let’s face it, the FMA’s are blade based. And I have seen time and again where people from outside our circle think we’re psychos working with blades just training to kill people. If you honestly look at the principles and techniques, much of it is based on maiming and/or ending it. Of course the majority of us never really want to go there, but train for the “what ifs” in life. To me, training in such a system would be good to understand the mechanics, principles and mindset to incorporate….if god forbid….I ever needed to, but more so to better understand ways of countering such attacks. In short, to better my percentage for survival.

    Oh, and I agree on taking a gun to a knife fight…….but you have to know there’s a knife fight in the first place. ;)




    Best regards,
    William
     
  20. I always go back to Ned Nepangue's article when thinking about this:

    It's interesting to note how many styles practice from "open" range at a pre-determined signal.

    Guns laws vary from country to country. If you travel by air it is likely you will not be able to take a gun with you.

    Knives (and things like broken bottles / beer glasses) are everywhere.
     

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