Pekiti-Tirsia and Sayoc Kali?

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by arnisador, Dec 5, 2005.

  1. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I've heard it suggested that Pekiti Tirsia and Sayoc Kali are related systems, and that the latter borrows heavily from the former. I've only had one seminar in Pekiti Tirsia and two in Sayoc Kali so I can't really judge. Is this indeed the case?
     
  2. Delta

    Delta knowledge seeker

  3. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Thanks! That compares the systems, but I was more curious about the history--the claim that Sayoc Kali was developed from Pekiti Tirsia.

    I've attended a couple of Sayoc seminars and think it's great stuff--unfortunately, no one offers it near me!
     
  4. Delta

    Delta knowledge seeker

    Sorry for the long time in replying. I've had a very busy week.

    Sayoc Knife work does not come from Pekiti Tersia. While Tuhon Sayoc did Train with Tuhon Gaje in the late 70's to early 80's. The Sayoc family art was already in existence.

    Tuhon Gaje did help in the continuing evolution of Sayoc Kali as did all of Tuhon Sayocs Mentors (Manong Dan, Tantang Canete, etc, )
    I hope this Helps.

    Respectfully,

    Nicholas Stevens
     
  5. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    It happened again last night--we were talking about knifework and of course the Pekiti and Sayoc groups come up as an example of those especially well-versed in the subject. Again, someone suggests that they are basically the same art as far as knife-fighting is concerned. Perhaps such speculation is not well-informed if the Sayoc art has been around for a long time, but I hear it fairly often!
     
  6. Airyu

    Airyu Junior Member

    Hello Guys!

    Tuhon Sayoc did train with Master Leo Gaje, during the 70's (about 2-3 years) HE has also trained with several other FMA masters as well. During the 70's and 80's the Sayoc household held several Filipino Cultural events where many notable Masters came shared the food and did some training. Master Remy Presas, Professor Vee, Master Gaje etc. etc. most of the famous East Coast pioneers attended these events.

    Having trained in PKT as well as Sayoc Kali for quite awhile, I can say that they are very different. With any art you will always see some similarities to other arts, but only with a little time you will see the differences.

    My final caveat:
    The people who say they are basically the same haven't trained in both arts for any length of time.

    gumagalang
    Guro Steve L.

    www.Bujinkandojo.net
    www.Sayoc.com
     
  7. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Someone else feels this way, and they edited the Sayoc Kali Wikipedia entry to reflect it. This is from the version that was added recently (it has since been edited again):

    This is a persistent belief!
     
  8. Delta

    Delta knowledge seeker

    Hello there,

    Tuhon Sayoc had a school that was separated into two sections. The front was where people who wanted to learn Tae kwon do was located. The second half in the back was for FMA training. People that visited and trained was Professor Remy Presas and Tuhon Gaje among others.

    So yes, Tuhon Sayoc did teach Tae Kwon do but that was not all he was doing nor was that all he knew until Tuhon Gaje came along. If you go to the web site www.sayoc.com you can see in fact that many of the Senior instructors started their training with Tatang Bo Sayoc in FMA/Sayoc Fighting System and then Tuhon Sayoc took over when his father retired.

    Respectfully,

    Nicholas Stevens
     
  9. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I didn't know that Remy Presas had a Sayoc connection, but I'm not surprised!
     
  10. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I've received some private comments that indicate an historical Pekiti-Sayoc connection. Again, whether or not this belief is correct, it's surely common!
     
  11. oosh

    oosh Junior Member

    do you mean a historical connection in terms of a connection made in the states(within past 30 years) or in P.I. ?
     
  12. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I had been told that Sayoc was developed from Pekiti Tirsia and hence is not as old as claimed. However, I was not told this by anyone who practiced either art, so I classified it as rumor/speculation. That's why I asked for clarification here!
     
  13. oosh

    oosh Junior Member

    Ah I see, well I'm not a pekiti or sayoc player, but I was under the impression that the Sayoc system originally came from Cavite - with Bo Sayoc as the head of the family system.
     
  14. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    This continues to play out on Wikipedia: Here's an older version of the Sayoc Kali article. It has:

    The claim is removed in the subsequent edit.
     
  15. Airyu

    Airyu Junior Member


    Hello Arnisador, et all,

    First, I have to say that this question regarding the history of either Sayoc Kali or Pekiti Tirsia Kali comes up all the time. The rumors are always flying…again it is now being started by Arnisador:

    Let’s look at this post on Wikipedia:

    Sayoc Kali

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Revision as of 09:32, 2 March 2006; view current revision
    ← Older revision | Newer revision →
    Jump to: navigation, search
    Sayoc Kali is a knife-based style of Kali, very heavily influenced by Pekiti Tirsia Kali. It is claimed to be a family system, headed by Chris Sayoc. Before their exposure to Pekiti Tirsia Kali, the Sayocs were teaching tae kwon do. The motto of the style is, "All Blade, All the Time" (but empty-hand techniques are also taught).
    Sayoc Kali is also taught as part of the more general Sayoc fighting system, which includes the sword, stick, and whip. The kerambit may also be used. Sayoc Kali emphasizes the correct and effective use of the blade, including single knife, multiple knives, the throwing of knives and darts, and empty-hands training.
    Look at the terminology being utilized, the grammatical errors, even the reference to PTK. All are very easily pointed out as a reference from someone who is either a) not very educated, b) someone not familiar with English, and c) someone with an axe to grind or a point to be made.

    The newer version was placed up from someone within the Sayoc organization to give a clear understanding of what Sayoc Kali is and even where it has been influenced by several different arts. So when you read that version you come away with: a) the person is educated, b) the person understands English as a primary language, c) is trying to put forth information in a logical manner to assist others in learning about Sayoc Kali.

    Sayoc Kali is a living art and evolves on a constant basis, it has been influenced by other arts, and Tuhon Sayoc’s training in other arts, as well it has roots in the Sayoc family that stretch back several generations.

    What else would you like to know?

    If others have questions please refer them to this thread and I will help answer their questions as well.

    Train Hard it is the Way!

    Gumagalang
    Guro Steve L.

    www.Bujinkandojo.net
    www.Sayoc.com
     
  16. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Thanks for the info. It's not that I want to add fuel to the fire here, it's that this question comes up a lot in conversation and I wanted to know the answer! With all the attention on Sayoc, especially since The Hunted, I hear this asked often.
     
  17. Airyu

    Airyu Junior Member

    Your Welcome Arnisador,

    Anytime you have any questions please feel free to contact me. I can offer more information to you if there are any specific questions as well.

    Gumagalang
    Guro steve L.

    www.Bujinkandojo.net
    www.Sayoc.com
     
  18. Gilla

    Gilla -== Banned ==-

    Setting the record straight

    The posting below (found on defend.net) is what started all of this. I didn’t address it at the time because I couldn’t believe that the public would actually believe this as it is nonsense...complete nonsense.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    “hello guys.
    we recently had Tuhon Sayoc here for a seminar and all i can say is WOW! He really is an excellent artist with every aspect of the blade. His ability with the blade is nothing short of extrodinary.
    During the weekend he covered with me his background with G.M. Leo Gaje and pekiti tersia. Tuhon Sayoc was at one point supposed to take over the P.T. system from Gaje, but turned it down to lead his family system Sayoc Kali. During his time with G.M. Gaje, people begain to study what he was demonstrating and came up with their version, thus the pekiti tersia system of knife fighting, which it is quite well known for, are modified versions of Sayoc kali. although this system is close when you first look at it, once you begin to do sayoc kali you see how much deeper sayoc kali is. If you are interested in seeing more or hearing more just let me know or check out his website.
    Sayoc.com
    thanks for letting me ramble.
    harley”
    posted : Feb 2001 on defend.net
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    First off, PTK has never disrespected Sayoc Kali. Having said that, what we find offensive is that for years Harley Elmore was allowed to propagate lies about the origins of PTK.
    I want people to discontinue this thread about Tuhon Gaje biting off of Sayoc Kali. I have nothing but respect for Tuhon Chris and his art but I will not allow people to disrespect my teacher any longer. Tuhon Leo Gaje was in his forties when Tuhon Chris started training with him. So, how could a mere teenager teach knife fighting to a combat veteran in his forties?
    Chronologically what Harley states does not add up. If anything people have bitten off PTK. PTK has been around for over 100 years, at least, and this is easily proved. Many of the systems in the United States have been directly influenced by the teachings of Tuhon Leo Gaje. Any system that is worth it's weight should be able to stand on it's own without insulting another system.
    At the very least, Tuhon Gaje deserves the respect and recognition as the leader of a system in which you've all trained. If you learn basic math from a professor and become a mathematician you should recognize, respect and honor the person who was responsible for showing you the way and means to developing your art and resulting success.
    The apparent lack of integrity and obvious personal agenda are staggering. If one doesn’t respect and honor their true origins then how can they reach their full potential. A true warrior follows his own path without insulting his peers.
    -Guro Eddie Hunt
     
  19. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Thanks for letting us know how this all started! It is a very persistent belief.
     
  20. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member


    Hello Guro Hunt,

    If you follow the rest of the comments on that link you posted you will see that many Sayoc members have attempted to discontinue that OLD thread.

    Guro Harley just started with SK and was over- enthusiastic about Sayoc Kali. Note that thread began FIVE years ago (ironically, LONGER than Tuhon Sayoc's actual training in PTK). We've corrected that with Guro Harley, and you will note no one else from Sayoc posted similarly. It appears to be the thread that doesn't die.

    So your indignation over this perceived slight will only continue if people keep referring to it as if it is a new post.

    I have personally gone to GT Gaje's seminar in Maryland when he and Manong Inosanto taught there awhile back. I didn't attend the seminar, but went specifically to extend my respects. He was gracious, and I think that is all anyone else requires on this matter.

    So it is time to lay this to rest.

    Regards,

    --Rafael--
    Sayoc Kali
     

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