Panantukan

Discussion in 'JKD-Kali' started by Doc, Nov 22, 2006.

  1. Pitboss 306

    Pitboss 306 New Member

    panatukan dummy?

    I trained in Kelly Worden's NSI Arnis for several years which is very much a hybrid JKD Kali, Heavy Kickboxing with Straightblasting, Limb destructions, Elbows, trapping tools, etc....

    Kelly designed and manufactures a great training dummy called the Silent Fighter:

    http://kellyworden.com/SilentFighter.html

    You can work on it pretty much full bore, and have little damage return. Thick Skinned, Padded and Solid. I believe it was originally designed for stickwork when he was training with Remy Presas.
     
  2. Doc

    Doc New Member

    I went to NMSU from 1983 to 1987 and trained with Joy Chaudhuri..who was a professor in the government department at the time. I also traveled back and forth to Tucson to train with his teacher...Augustine Fong. I've also trained Kali/JKD with Rex Kimball. He grew up in Deming and was living in Cruces at the time. I've discovered lots of things to train on the dummy that aren't Wing Chun. I consider it a good investment. Especially if you don't have a group of guys you train with several times a week. The dummy can take up some of the slack.

    Keith
     
  3. Doc

    Doc New Member

    I've seen those before in the magazines. They look good, and would obviously be better for stickwork than the warrior dummy. If they could only make it free-standing it would be even better! :) I still like the arm configuration from the Wing Chun version. Maybe its just because I'm biased, but I think it would provide for better "hand work." But I've never had the opportunity to try the Silent Fighter. Do you train Panantukan on one? Thanks!


    Keith
     
  4. Pitboss 306

    Pitboss 306 New Member

    I guess it's all a matter of definitions, right?
    I can work Pangamut angles, limb destructions and close quarter kickboxing stuff I learned from Pekiti-tirsia's Grand Tuhon Gaje on a silent fighter, no problem, plus most of the NSI Kuntaw and JKD kickboxing drills I learned from Kelly...

    I'm pretty sure all that combined is a pretty decent mesh... how much is actual "Panantukan" is still a mystery.
     
  5. yomitche

    yomitche New Member

    Hey, Doc, we just might know each other. I trained with Joy also, and after he moved to the Phoenix area, I continued training with Kurt Saenz. I used to clean the school for Joy and Kurt in exchange for lessons (which I did for probably about four years or so - so you might remember me for that also). Rex Kimball sounds familiar... don't know why, though. Keith Myers and I palled around quite a bit together, if that helps.

    My name is Mitch York. I would have been probably the youngest person in the WC school. It's a small world.

    After leaving home for the military, I wasn't happy with most WC schools/teachers, so eventually gravitated toward FMA and now train exclusively (for about the last year) in Balintawak (maybe because of the WC translation and background). I cross train in other things, but the Balintawak is what has me posting on this forum. Nice to chat with you and good to see a WC brother from Cruces on this board!

    Mitch
     
  6. Doc

    Doc New Member

    Well, hell ya Mitchell! Its me Keith Myers! :) Carol and I moved back to the area about 2 yrs ago. As soon as I got here to Ft. Bliss they sent me to Iraq for a year. So I've been back and working at the hospital for right at 1 year. How are things with you?

    Keith


     
  7. yomitche

    yomitche New Member

    No Crap! It really is a small world! I'm gonna send you a message through the forum's service so I don't take up too much space on the Panantukan thread and try to keep this public discussion on its original course.

    Panantukan-wise though...

    Been spending quite a bit of time adapting my WC style over time to address different ranges, tactics, and attributes.

    I spent a LOT of time (years, in fact... not even sure I'm done yet) on the Chum Kiu idea --- bridging the gap. I see this as the crucial element, for me, in fighting. I can learn every technical aspect of a system, but unless and until I can get into a range, where I am comfortable, and be able to move out again if necessary, all the technical skills are trivial.

    I can obviously still play "classical" WC, but tend to approach things slightly differently now. Empty handed, I tend to keep rear heel up almost exclusively, to allow for greater mobility and hip rotation. My Balintawak guro says I "shoot in" to a fault. When I enter, I change levels and so forth, quite a bit. Attack hip level to disrupt balance (for example), come up while trapping, attack centerline, blow a knee, keep moving through them. If my rear heel is planted, I can't shoot in as quickly as I'd like for either a takedown or an "intercepting" entry.

    You remember the tournament we went to at White Sands years ago? If the other fighter was willing to stand and trade with me, I'd probably win hands down. Mobility was the issue then and now. I tend to intercept the opponent now, and attack their centerline (classical WC here) which requires crap loads of speed, mobility, and instant determination.

    I still like to fight up close and personal. Go figure. Once I bridge the gap, most fighters are uncomfortable. The "modified" mapo footwork, ability to continuously and rapidly destroy centerline, and disrupt body geometry (silat) makes my style work (I think).

    Limb destructions are a part of bridging the gap and as Ron Balicki says - "don't stay to admire your work." I try to keep on the move.

    Of the videos you mentioned earlier, I don't believe you mentioned the Balicki "Filipino Boxing" 3 DVD set. I don't have the others you listed, and intend to get the Rick Faye material at some point, but would definitely recommend the Balicki ones also.

    Inside, when most folks are trying to figure out what I'm doing, and start grasping at me because things are getting beyond their comfort level, I look for opportunities to take down and get a submission - but in weapons arts, it's probably best not to roll around on the floor too much.

    GM Jorge Penafiel asked me one day "do you grapple?" after watching me with another escrima student. I said yes, I can. He just shook his head. Told the other guy to stay away from it! LOL.

    I love the ability of FMA's to translate not only other weapons, but to empty hand fighting as well - - Panantukan.

    Guro Malanyaon and I are starting to play more with knives (sounds dangerous, huh?) and bunyos (palm stick). Turns out EVERYTHING we do works with both of these weapons and EMPTY HANDED as well. It's just a matter of investing the time to see how ranges and different weapons work for us.

    We also spend quite a bit of time knocking the hell out of each other with weapons, so to say we are shooting for a high level of realism is accurate. We do some boxing as well.

    We do quite a bit of empty hand work in the Balintawak club, including heavy bag work, etc. like boxing.

    Boxing skills, and therefore the change in stance, complement the Balintawak I practice maybe more than anything else.

    I am pretty interested in studying either Muay Thai or Bukti Negara. I have very qualified instruction available in both and need to decide which to invest my time in. I think the Muay Thai would complement the Balintawak more than Bukti Negara, but think the Silat complements my overall fighting style more than anything else. Maybe you have some input on this?

    Anyone else here have any input on this? The more I learn about Silat, the more impressed I am with it... but still reluctant to make the big plunge and devote the next several years to actually "getting it."

    What would others here choose to do in this case?
     
  8. Doc

    Doc New Member

    Hey Mitch!

    Been spending quite a bit of time adapting my WC style over time to address different ranges, tactics, and attributes.

    ---It sounds like we have undergone similar "evolutions" in what we do.


    Empty handed, I tend to keep rear heel up almost exclusively, to allow for greater mobility and hip rotation.

    ---I've been doing this for several years now as well. Kind of a "JKD-ized" version of the Wing Chun stance. Which is another reason why a transition to Panantukan was so natural.


    If my rear heel is planted, I can't shoot in as quickly as I'd like for either a takedown or an "intercepting" entry.

    ---I agree. It makes a big difference in mobility and power generation. Wing Chun guys talking about moving from the "kwa" and using the hips. But they aren't really doing it as well as they could when they keep the rear heel planted.


    You remember the tournament we went to at White Sands years ago? If the other fighter was willing to stand and trade with me, I'd probably win hands down. Mobility was the issue then and now.

    --I remember! :)

    I tend to intercept the opponent now, and attack their centerline (classical WC here) which requires crap loads of speed, mobility, and instant determination.

    ---That's where the hubud skills come in. Hubud (or Chi Sao) is all about gaining control and an advantageous position after you have an "attachment" with the opponent. It doesn't matter how you got there. The minute you touch or "bridge in", contact sensitivity skills come into play.


    I still like to fight up close and personal. Go figure. Once I bridge the gap, most fighters are uncomfortable.

    ---Yep! Most guys don't know how to deal with someone that close! A lot of Panantukan is in-fighting as well. My favorite motto is "take their space and smash their face!"


    The "modified" mapo footwork, ability to continuously and rapidly destroy centerline, and disrupt body geometry (silat) makes my style work (I think).

    ---I agree. You have to disrupt their balance...take their space. Too many Wing Chun guys are focused on Chi Sao tactics to tie up the arms. They don't go in and actually move the opponent to destroy his base. That's why my Wing Chun gravitated towards Robert Chu's method. He does disrupt base! But I discovered that I can do it even more effectively with Panantukan using Dumog applications and the some of the silat concepts as you mentioned.



    Of the videos you mentioned earlier, I don't believe you mentioned the Balicki "Filipino Boxing" 3 DVD set.

    ---Go back a bit. I reviewed them and others commented on them as well.




    Inside, when most folks are trying to figure out what I'm doing, and start grasping at me because things are getting beyond their comfort level, I look for opportunities to take down and get a submission

    ---Yep! That's where the Dumog phase of Panantukan kicks in.


    but in weapons arts, it's probably best not to roll around on the floor too much.

    ---Its OK as long as their is no blade! There is a lot of grappling in the Dog Brother's stick-fighting method. Guro Inosanto also shows a lot of chokes and locks using the stick on the ground on his Dumog DVD.



    I love the ability of FMA's to translate not only other weapons, but to empty hand fighting as well - - Panantukan.

    ---Me too! Its much more adaptable than any other martial art I have been exposed to.


    Guro Malanyaon and I are starting to play more with knives (sounds dangerous, huh?) and bunyos (palm stick). Turns out EVERYTHING we do works with both of these weapons and EMPTY HANDED as well. It's just a matter of investing the time to see how ranges and different weapons work for us.

    ---Yep! Panantukan has been referred to as "blade awareness boxing." Almost everything we do in Panantukan could also be done with a knife in reverse grip.



    Boxing skills, and therefore the change in stance, complement the Balintawak I practice maybe more than anything else.

    ---That's good!


    I am pretty interested in studying either Muay Thai or Bukti Negara. I have very qualified instruction available in both and need to decide which to invest my time in. I think the Muay Thai would complement the Balintawak more than Bukti Negara, but think the Silat complements my overall fighting style more than anything else. Maybe you have some input on this?

    ---I think the Muay Thai would give you the most direct and quickest returns on your emtpy-hand fighting. The Bukti Negara would certainly teach you how to do the various sweeps and balance disruptions, but these things are present within FMA as well. And the "boxing mechanic" in Muay Thai would probably translate the most readily to your Balintawik, from what little I've seen of it.

    Anyone else here have any input on this? The more I learn about Silat, the more impressed I am with it... but still reluctant to make the big plunge and devote the next several years to actually "getting it."

    ---Yeah. I think your fastest return for time invested would likely come from Muay Thai.

    Keith
     
  9. Doc

    Doc New Member

    Panantukan Website

    Hey Guys!

    I am working on a website specifically for Panantukan. Anyone have suggestions or things you would like to see?

    Keith
     
  10. yomitche

    yomitche New Member

    Hey Keith! I think a Panantukan specific website would be a great idea! I'm sure you have already thought of covering all of the content I would like to see, but just to help with some "objective" feedback...

    1. A "History of..." or "What is..." page
    2. Image and video gallery to demonstrate Panantukan
    3. Contact information for practitioners/schools that offer instruction
    4. A bibliography of written and video media
    5. Separate from the bibliography, organized reviews of the same
    6. Events page, listing seminars etc. that may be of "timely" interest to others.

    These are just a few of the first thoughts that would cross my mind in creating a website. Hope it helps!

    Mitch
     
  11. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Tuhon William McGrath recently made this post that shows empty hand vs. knife techniques. What's interesting about these techniques is that they are modular and can be seen as falling into a continuum: empty hand vs. empty hand, empty hand vs. knife, knife vs. knife, double knife vs. double knife, knife vs. empty hand, etc.

    Best,

    Steve
     
  12. NubreedKaliSilat

    NubreedKaliSilat New Member

    I have every dvd and book on Panantukan that has been put on the market.......I am going to buy the Guru Suzanne Luna Spezzano MADJAPAHIT SILAT dvd when Guro Inosanto comes to Denver in Jan. 2009
     
  13. Ern-Dog

    Ern-Dog New Member

  14. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Nice clip! I like how he makes the connection between the elbow destruction of the bicep and the knife slash to it.
     
  15. Doc

    Doc New Member

    Hi Guys!

    I've recently moved to Germantown Maryland if anyone in the area is interested in getting together to train some Panantukan. Just drop me a line! kmyers 3770 @ aol. com

    Keith
     
  16. Doc

    Doc New Member

    Now in Rockville Maryland. Offer still stands! :)
     
  17. Doc

    Doc New Member

    Not a lot of activity here! I've been away from this as well. Been doing Wing Chun for awhile and now getting back to my Panantukan. Maybe if we had a separate Panantukan sub-forum we could generate more interest? For awhile Panantukan was more or less exclusive to people associated with the Inosanto Academy. But I've noticed recently that other groups are really "fleshing out" their empty-hand curriculums and also using the term "Panantukan." There seems to be a growing interest. So, moderators, any chance of getting a separate sub-forum? Kind of a "build it and they will come" approach? :)
     
  18. Doc

    Doc New Member

    This forum doesn't seem to get much traffic at all. So I decided to start a Facebook discussion forum to see if that would appeal to more people. The Wing Chun discussion group on facebook has 12,000 members! Anyway, simple go to facebook and search for "The Panantukan Forum". I'd paste the link but for some reason this window won't let me.

    Thanks!
     

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