Discussion in 'JKD-Kali' started by Doc, Nov 22, 2006.

  1. Grand Dragon

    Grand Dragon New Member

    Brock, I don't bother learning Djurus anymore. And yes, you're right, the upward fist is standard, but I honestly haven't personally seen too many people use it as a continuous straight blast. That's why it's turned slightly inward, not fully palm up.
    Thanks for your info.
  2. Rizaldy

    Rizaldy New Member

    If you can get a hand on Terry Gibson's Maphilindo Video series, those are really good too.
  3. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    Speaking of the fist orientation, Burton Richardson recommends almost fully rotated fist, calling that approach "the boxing blast". also, it is important in that type of work to run with your feet, thus making every hit being a rear hand cross, for power.
  4. Doc

    Doc New Member

    Panantukan History

    Hi Guys! I thought I would try and breath some new life into this thread.

    As I see it there are basically 3 versions of the history of Panantukan that go something like this:

    1. Panantukan is a historical method that goes way back in the Phillipines. It is empty hand work based upon the use of a knife, and therefore emphasizes evasiveness and lots of movement. Around the turn of the century western boxers were exposed to Panantukan and picked up on its biomechanics. This is said to be responsible for the transition from the old bare-knuckle style of boxing to what we now consider "modern" boxing. I think this version of the story is meant to make Panantukan sound more "traditional" and "respectable." But I have done some research on western boxing and there are all kinds of problems and holes in this version. I don't find much at all to support it. There are plenty of good explanations of why the old "John L. Sullivan" style of boxing transitioned to the "modern" style without bringing Panantukan into it.

    2. Panantukan existed in the Phillipines in a general sense if not outright, and had a similar powerbase as western boxing because, was based upon knife-fighting and evasiveness. As western boxing became more and more popular throughout the world, Panantukan players recognized the similaries and began to incorporate western boxing into what they were doing. This version is more plausible, but has some problems of its own. The biggest being that you just don't find much Panantukan in the Phillipines (or so I've been told).

    3. What seems to me to be the most likely and the most plausible version is this: In more recent times, players that had learned both FMAs and western boxing came up with a general approach that combined both and came to be called Panantukan. I think one of the major contributors was likely Lucky Lucaylucay. He and his father were both competitive boxers in Hawaii. They of course also knew FMAs. Guro Inosanto credits Lucky Lucaylucay with introducing Panantukan to his academy. I think it is likely that he was one of...if not the...key creator of the method. Again, as I stated before, its not a big stretch. Start with a thorough grounding in western boxing, and then start adding on principles and methods from Kali empty hands...limb destructions, zoning, body manipulations, knees, elbows, etc.....and you've got Panantukan.

    I had a pretty long exchange/debate/argument with a guy on rec.martial-arts awhile back who claimed that Panantukan did not exist and was just a sham put forth by charlatans. His main reasoning was that you don't find it in the Phillipines, and that the term "Panantukan" simply refers to western boxing. He even quoted from a Tagalog dictionary. I pointed out that regardless of its status in the Phillipines, it is a part of the curriculum of several of the biggest FMA academies in the US, and has several different videos and a book produced that cover it. This makes it legitimate here in the states. It doesn't matter to me one bit if no one is doing it in the Phillipines. I got the last word in, whether I convinced him or not. :)

    It seems to me that Panantukan was just a natural evolution for FMAs in the west. For westerners with an actual background in boxing, or even with no background other than growing up in our culture and seeing it all their lives, Panantukan comes more naturally and is the ideal way to make their boxing more "martial." From the perspective of FMA instructors, Panantukan is an excellent way to attract and appeal to westerners who might not otherwise be interested in martial arts. I think that too often Panantukan gets lost in a curriculum that includes JKD, Thai Boxing, Silat, etc. Most only know of it from vague references when training. They might go through a series of motions and the instructor comments "this comes from Panantukan," and then they're off and doing a JKD drill. Panantukan deserves to be taught in an organized fashion in its own right, separately and independant from the rest. I do Panantukan. I don't do JKD, Thai Boxing, etc. There are similarities, but Panantukan has a flavor all its own that I like and seek to develop.

  5. wes tasker

    wes tasker New Member

    Doc - I could not agree with you more... That is one (of many...) things I like about Mr. Faye's program. He has it all fleshed out and teaches Panantukan independantly. Did you ever see Mr. Elmore's Panantukan DVD? I have Volume 1 but not the second one yet...

    -wes tasker
  6. Doc

    Doc New Member

    Haven't seen them yet. What do you think of his first video? How does it compare to Guro Faye's videos? I thought about getting them recently, and saw that he is soon to release a DVD on Maphilindo Silat. So I thought I might wait until it comes out and order all 3 at once. I have Ron Balicki's recently released Panantukan DVDs on order, but they haven't come yet. I'll do a review here once I've had a chance to watch them.

  7. wes tasker

    wes tasker New Member


    Mr. Elmore's first DVD had two interesting things in it that I believe differentiate it from other DVD's on Panantukan. One is that he teaches the "series" that Manong John LaCoste taught to Guro Dan Inosanto. I'm a history geek, so I thought that was great to see. The other is that he explores the blade application more than other DVD's that I've seen on this subject. His second DVD looks pretty cool with the focus mitt feeds etc., but I'll have to wait on that one. Mr. Faye's remain my favorite, and I'm waiting to see if and when he comes out with Volume III. I'd love to hear what you think of Mr. Balicki's series...

    -wes tasker
  8. sifu uga

    sifu uga New Member

    I agree. Many of us lose the pure Panantuken in our JKD curriculum. I know I myself am guilty of this at times. With so many tools at our disposal it is important to first have a solid foundation in Panantuken. After reading this reminder I am going to be more mindful to not lose it in the shuffle. Thanks guys.
  9. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    What all is included in the Panantuken curriculum? How complete is it?
  10. Doc

    Doc New Member

    I can't answer for Sifu Uga, but the Panantukan that I study and practice is pretty complete! Of course it includes striking with fist, open hand, and elbows because it is, after all, "boxing." It also includes the "standard" boxing defenses like the catch, cuff, cover, etc. But it also covers the limb destructions or "guntings", joint locks and manipulations, and body manipulations and takedowns. Hubud or "energy drills" are also an important part of the curriculum. If you consider Panajakman and Dumog as "subsets" of Panantukan, then it also includes low-line kicks and some grappling. I like to break the training up into 5 different drilling or training platforms for skill development:

    1. Jab entry drills
    2. Catch and return drills
    3. Focus mitt drills
    4. Heavy bag drills
    5. Hubud

  11. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    That's so much more than the simple drill that gets called Panantukan so often. It's like Sinawali, I guess--many people think of it as just a couple of simple exercises, but for others it's a complete art.
  12. Doc

    Doc New Member

    Yep! See, that's what I meant before about Panantukan getting lost in a diverse curriculum that includes JKD, Thai Boxing, etc. Lots of people get the impression that "panantukan" is just the limb destructions. But it is a complete art unto itself. Personally, I'm not interested in JKD or Thai Boxing. I like the "flavor" and the movement of Panantukan. Its too bad that it so often gets eclipsed by the other arts. So often the approach that people take is to go out and learn as many different things as possible. I just want to get really good at Panantukan.

  13. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Where I take JKD we are taught that the limb destructions are from Kali more generally, and all we do from Panantukan is a set of "Panantukan drills" consisting of A punches B, B punches A, A punches B, reset, repeat with B starting the drill. But that's JKD--a little bit from everywhere. I use it to improve my range/timing/entering/transitioning skills in my base art of Modern Arnis, not as it's one style. I hope to see more of the Panantukan system some day!
  14. Doc

    Doc New Member

    Hey Guys!

    I finally received Ron Balicki's DVD series entitled "Filipino Boxing." These are great DVDs! There are 3 in the series and each one is right at 2 hrs long. The production and instructional quality are excellent. Multiple camera angles and screen shots are used to show the action as clearly as possible. Balicki organizes the series into lessons by category and level. He covers basic punching, defenses, limb destructions, footwork, etc as you would expect. But he also goes into several structured lock flows both standing and on the ground as well as kicking and grappling. He gives a fairly in-depth coverage of hubud that really opened my eyes to applications I hadn't seen before. At times the video cuts to Balicki sparring with a student and showing some of the techniques and combinations coming out in "real time." The lessons are arranged so that one builds upon another as you progress through the DVDs. But if you wanted to see the entire hubud series, or the entire jab defense series, etc, all you have to do is select from the menu to watch those lessons back to back. These videos are really well done and IMHO are an absolute steal at the price I got them for! They are listed on Cold Steel's website for $99, but I got them from Jeff at the Cutlery Shoppe for $49. That's nearly 6 hrs of quality DVD instruction for the price that is often asked for one 45 minute DVD. Check it out here:

  15. Terry Trahan

    Terry Trahan New Member

    Very good review of the Balicki DVDs, and I think I will have to get them.
    I also have a strong interest in panantukan/pangamot, and it is becoming my main focus right now.

    Thanks, Terry
  16. Sisco T.

    Sisco T. New Member

    i also recieved and watched balicki's Filipino boxing series. i think it's VERY good. it's pretty much broken down in a way, to me, that if you wanted to teach it this is the blueprint to the way you'd do it. very good info, very detailed info, and just nice to watch. doesn't make me fall asleep while watching like some other instructionals do.

  17. darkwolfe

    darkwolfe New Member

    Hi all, I've been interested in panantukan (just ordered Balicki's vid and Faye's book) and wanted to know what you all think of the application of it to mma, kickboxing, and full contact sparring. Do you think it works with combat sports? ...obviously with illegal blows removed. I was reading a post on Faye's vid at Bullshido and most people thought it wasn't effective. Their main complaint was that the parrying/trapping/destruction would be ineffective against a good western boxer. Another issue was that since the attacks were based on knife attacks, they weren't really effective (powerwise) when used empty handed. Your thoughts and comments would be greatly appreciated.
  18. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    I cannot say anything on Mr. Faye's video, since I haven't seen it, but Ron Balicki's one should dissolve those doubts, since most of hte techniques are also shown in full contact sparring.
    Anyway, at Bullshido tehy are bringing some really valid points across, but it seems to me that they have gone alittle bit too far in that "agnostic" direction, i.e. seeing things out of context, just for the sake of criticizing them...
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2008
  19. darkwolfe

    darkwolfe New Member

    Thx for the reply. Yeah, it seemed that some of the users do like to have negative things to say about almost everything. My Balicki dvd is on the way.

    Btw, has anyone here sparred with Panantukan? If so, how did it go?
  20. NubreedKaliSilat

    NubreedKaliSilat New Member

    My Guro Ron Balicki the son-in-law of Guro Dan Inosanto has DVD's out on Panantukan. I have not seen them yet. But I have them on order here is a link!

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