Panantukan

Discussion in 'JKD-Kali' started by Doc, Nov 22, 2006.

  1. Doc

    Doc New Member

    Anyone want to talk about Panantukan? Its my favorite aspect of the FMA's. :) I love the way that the FMA empty-hand methods are grafted so effectively onto a western boxing base.

    Keith
     
  2. p.v.

    p.v. man with stick

    Some people will not agree with you,but I'm :),western boxing is one of my favourite for empty hand work in FMA.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2006
  3. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Even in Modern Arnis, which has adopted so much of Shotokan Karate, boxing-style techniques are important in our empty-hands work.

    Where I study JKD we frequently use Panantukan/Pananjakman drills with (kick)boxing-style techniques. I like them!
     
  4. samson818

    samson818 New Member

    Panantukan has some great stuff, especially from the Inosanto/Lacoste camp.

    Has anyone been able to successfully use their destructions and gunting as entries in sparring/combat?
    It has worked when I have used it against sparring partners, but the 1 or 2 times I have tried it real life, my opponents were so high on adrenalin they didnt even feel it.

    Anyone have any interesting entries from panantukan?
    Panantukan drills?
    How do you combine panantukan, sikaran, and dumog/buno when sparring?
     
  5. DAMAG-INC

    DAMAG-INC New Member

    I watched the Kali-Tudo dvds and they are awesome! It's basically empty-hand FMA and Maphilindo Silat training MMA style. If you wanna bring out the best in honing your panantukan skill specifically, don't be surprised to find yourself agreeing that this dvd set IS a worthy investment.

    Daniel
     
  6. Doc

    Doc New Member

    I gotta agree with Daniel on this one! This DVD set from the Dog Brothers is excellent. They are coming out with another installment in the future that I expect to be very good as well. It is not really "classical" Panantukan that is on the first DVD set, but good stuff!

    While we are on the topic of Panantukan videos, let me mention the ones that I have seen and what I thought.

    1. I recently purchased the 2 DVD set from Rick Faye. These are very good as well. They are about 90 minutes apiece and just full of info. I also highly recommend Guro Faye's book on the subject. It is the only book I know of that covers Panantukan. It is put together as a training notebook and the DVDs follow along with it pretty well.

    2. I have the video that Ted Lucaylucay did many years back for Unique Publications. It is a good overview of basic western boxing, but that's about it. It doesn't really go into the things that are unique to Panantukan. I was a bit disappointed with it.

    3. I have the first video that Guro Lucaylucay's student Mark Stewart made. It is pretty decent, but not as good as Faye's IMHO. I believe he may have done some others after that first one. Anyone seen them?

    4. I have Steve Grody's series "The Flow of Kali Empty Hands" that he did for Unique several years ago. Even though the word is not in the title, these are straight up Panantukan videos that emphasizes the FMA element more than the boxing element. These are also excellent. He really breaks things down and goes over them slowly so that you can get them down. The one complaint I had with Rick Faye's vids was that sometimes he goes so quickly that you have to keep rewinding over and over to figure out what he is doing.

    5. I have the Panatukan DVD and the Dumog DVD on order from Guro Inosanto's most recent series of DVDs. I'm looking forward to seeing them.

    6. I've seen the promotional shots for Ernie Lake's Panantukan videos and they look pretty good. I will likely get them eventually as well. From the promo shots, my impression is that Guro Lake is focusing on knife application from the Panantukan, but I could be wrong. Has anyone seen these. Guro Lake...are you reading? :)

    7. I note recently that Harley Elmore has some Panantukan DVDs as well. Anyone seen them?

    Anyone else have any good videos to recommend?

    Keith
     
  7. Doc

    Doc New Member

    Origins

    I received Guro Inosanto's Panantukan DVD in the mail yesterday and have had a chance to watch it. In the DVD Guro Inosanto pretty clearly indicates that his Panantukan comes primarily from John Lacoste and Lucky Lucaylucay. The impression I have formed...and this is just my impression...is that what Lucaylucay taught had an emphasis on punching (western boxing), while what Lacoste taught had more of an emphasis on the elements more distinct to Panantukan...like the limb destructions, foot trapping, takedowns, etc. Now this is not to say that these elements didn't exist in the other's art....just talking here about "emphasis."

    Keith
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2006
  8. Doc

    Doc New Member

    Kicking

    I thought I would throw another idea out for discussion to see if anyone had some input. :) Clearly, even though Panantukan is referred to as "filipino boxing", there is kicking involved. I've seen this typically referred to as "Pananjakman." But there is also the art of "Sikaran", which is "filipino kicking methods." My impression is that there is a difference between Pananjakman and Sikaran. Pananjakman is essentially a subset of Panantukan. It is the kicking method that supports the hands and that works naturally from the same base biomechanic. So you have a "foot" version of the punching. In contrast, Sikaran is more developed in order to function as an entire art in its own right...much like Tae Kwon Do. Both of these have hand techniques as well, but the focus is on using the legs.

    I look at it this way....when we say "filipino boxing" we are using "boxing" to mean empty-hand fighting in general. Much like in western boxing's early history when there were fewer rules. Back then throws and limited grappling was allowed even though it was referred to as "boxing." So we could even say that to some extent Dumog is also a subset Panantukan. Now even though we are referring to empty-hand fighting in general, since we are using the western term "boxing", we are implying that the empty-hand fighting being spoken of comes from the base of a western boxing biomechanic. So in my mind, when we use the term "Panantukan", we are referring to working from a basic western boxing base or biomechanic to bring in all of the other FMA empty-hand fighting tactics that flow well from that base. At least that's how I see it. :)

    Keith
     
  9. samson818

    samson818 New Member

    I agree with Doc on this point.
    I think most people/groups who train "Panantukan" come from the the Inosanto/Lacoste line.
    IMHO, he has really developed and emphasized this part of FMA training in the USA.
    Inosanto groups train usually in Thai Boxing, Western Boxing, Maphilido Silat, as well as various FMA's, so I see alot of bleeding over into their Panantukan.

    Most of the FMA groups I have come across in the Philippines do have an empty hands curriculum, but they do not train it as often.
    I would say they focus 80-90% of their time on weapons (stick, blade, sword, etc. depending on the system).
    And many times there is alot of influence from other arts such as Aikido, Jujitsu, Karate, Kung Fu, and Silat.
    Simply a different emphasis in training.

    And yes, Sikaran in the Philippines is indeed very much like TKD.
    Many children play this in the pronvince much like hackey sack in the USA.
    I have to say, however, I have seen many fierce Sikaran fighters.
    They can be extremely effective kickers, especially at their range, considering they started since a young age.
     
  10. jayMa

    jayMa New Member

    I think that Rick Faye's videos are some of the best! Does anyone have the book that Rick Faye made and is it worth buying? Also, has anyone purchased or seen Harley Elmore's videos on Panantukan? Are they worth purchasing? They seem a bit expensive...

    thanks
     
  11. Doc

    Doc New Member

    Hey Jayma!

    See my previous post:

    1. I recently purchased the 2 DVD set from Rick Faye. These are very good as well. They are about 90 minutes apiece and just full of info. I also highly recommend Guro Faye's book on the subject. It is the only book I know of that covers Panantukan. It is put together as a training notebook and the DVDs follow along with it pretty well.

    The book is definitely worth buying! As far as I know, its the only book you are going to find on the topic of Panantukan. As far as Harley Elmore's vids.....I asked the same question. Anybody know the answer? :)

    Keith
     
  12. Silence_sucks

    Silence_sucks New Member

    samson818 i have often wondered that about the gunting, and every time i do i end up hitting myself in the bicep over and over again. It has its pros and cons which i realised when training against this giant Scandinavian bloke in class and i literally could not reach his biceps his arms were that long, though as guro Inosanto said just because the technique doesn't work for us doesn't mean its not a valid technique, generally the instructors and guros who have been doing stick work for the last however many years or heavily muscled people can put enough force into the destruction even when my guro slaps instead of knuckles for saftey it hurts like hell. The thing i did find good about it though is it can be used on the ulna nerve or the crazy bone, this can also force the arm to bend inwards and is closer than the brachial nerve in the bicep meaning that the punch does not have to come in a close to your face to destroy. Doc, i agree totally panantukan is a good way to describe the empty handed element of fma - in the lacoste/inosanto system although we learn panantukan as just the boxing we learn pananjakman alongside it and are encouraged to be able to integrate the both as well as dumog plus transition into jun fan, silat, muay thai whatever you know that works for the situation.
     
  13. Ern-Dog

    Ern-Dog New Member

    Hello All,

    In all 3 Volumes of the Punyo Mano Panantukan series the knife application is shown before the empty hand application. I feel this is extremely important in getting a better understanding of the "root" of the empty hand techniques.

    Brief synopsis of the 3 Videos....

    Vol. 1 is an introduction to Panantukan, also known as Pangamut, but the emphasis is on the close quarters range known as Puno Mano. Topics covered are: Striking tools, Entries, as well as off-balancing techs.

    Vol. 2 in the series takes these concepts a step further. Showing different options off opp.'s counters.

    Vol. 3 will cap the series off with some more advanced options, and it will also show how to apply everything in the previous two DVDs while entering through your own punching combinations.
     
  14. DAMAG-INC

    DAMAG-INC New Member

  15. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

  16. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Another consideration would be Chris Petrilli's "Secrets of Pangamot" DVD set from Paladin Press. Information about the DVD's can be found at the following URL:

    http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1277

    Most of the DVD set shows unarmed defense against single stick attacks although there are numerous examples of how the locks and throws shown can be applied against an unarmed attacker.

    Best,

    Steve Lamade
     
  17. DAMAG-INC

    DAMAG-INC New Member

    In fact, I also do have a JKD Concepts background through my instructor Tim Mousel in Houston. I could have went full on with a real straight blast too but since my partner is still new to contact and recovering from training in a mc-dojo, I still want him to come back to train so he can be prepared for when I really blast him.
     
  18. Karambit

    Karambit New Member

    Hello Ernie, do you have a rough ETA for volume 3..thanks :coolyello
     
  19. Grand Dragon

    Grand Dragon New Member

    Guro Cass taught me a Silat version of the straight blast in which you blast with your fists with the palms facing at an upward angle.
    The thought is to biomechanically produce the knuckles (which would now be on the bottom) for more penetration.
    You can still blast just like you do in your formal JKD training, but you have a little bit more pronounced knuckle impact and your forearms cover more surface area. Thus, increasing more of a smothering effect and assiting a bit more in tactile sensitivity.
    One can easily introduce this version of the straight blast in FMA empty hands techniques.
     
  20. Brock

    Brock Asha'man

    I believe that would be Djuru 1 in Sifu Cass' system, but from the other Silat systems I've seen it's pretty much the standard 1st Djuru.
     

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