numbering systems

Discussion in 'General' started by snake, Mar 17, 2009.

  1. Guro Dave Gould


    Lameco Eskrima`s "Abecedario"

    Just for the record Lameco Eskrima has 12 distinct sets of Basic strikes with comprising of 12 strikes each:

    Alphabeto-abecedario -

    a)- Binahagi- broken striks
    b)- Paulit-ulit- repetative broken strikes
    c)- Tuloy-tuloy- fluid strikes
    d)- Doblete- fluid double strikes
    e)- Patalon- hit and retract
    f)- Enganyo- deceptive strikes
    g)- Labo-labo- striking at random
    h)- Labo-labong enganyo- deceptive strikes at random
    i)- Dalub hasaang galaw- specializing in the angles of striking
    j)- Tapos sa gilid ng sentral- always starting and stopping along the centerline
    k)- Ikabit ang paluin- connecting strikes
    l)- Punyo abecedario- strikes with the butt of weapon

    So instead of literally 144 strikes there are 12 distinct methods of striking the 12 basic strikes which happens to total 144 stikes or methods.

    Let the jokes resume...

    Guro Dave Gould.
  2. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    We state how we teach different angles of attack. Yet when faced with a situation that calls upon our training to defend ourselves, we revert back to the basics and amp up the delivery system to concentrate on survival.. I have always told my students that it doesn't make any difference in what system you train in or what I have taught you, it is up to you to apply the training to enhance your survival on the field of combat.. Remember this, if you are forced to think about which angle of attack you are going to use, you are already two steps behind in the battle.. A bolo or short knife has two major attributes and it is to either cleave through the attacking limb or stick the blade in up to the hilt and rely on a back up weapon to finish the fight.. That's survival at it's most basic level.. Just my opinion
  3. Personally I like something a Yaw-Yan instructor said to me.

    "We have 40 different kicks"

    "40?!" I replied. "That's a lot!".

    He said "Yes, we learn 40 but you master 2 or 3 and those are the ones that you use all the time".

    So personally I would rather have 2,3 or 5 strikes that I can execute very well than knowledge of 100s. I have also seen that there is an over-reliance on the names of strikes, exactly which strike is a number 7 or 11 etc, etc. I would much rather be working on the transmission methods of delivering an effective strike (such as footwork, accuracy, fluidity of body mechanics) and the "Why?, when?, where?" then a mental memory work-out.

    Then again I am an extremely junior student compared to you huys so it's good to hear the voices of experience!

    Must go practice now...!

  4. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    That's how I feel! Different people will emphasize different options out of the curriculum. I want to see what I might be facing but not try to master all possible options.
  5. R. Mike Snow

    R. Mike Snow Chiseled Edge

    I totally agree with you're perspective Mr. Gould. I actually teach for free and have only training partners so that we can get away with beating the hell out of each other. I also teach in a conceptual manner wich shows that the sets of 12 overlap. But when people are new, which I was trying to explain earlier. I try my best to express simplicity and concepts because complicated moves don't work, people don't stand to let you beat on them and I don't want them to be overloaded with abecedario. Which is why I abandoned commercialized martial arts systems when I was a kid and leaned toward combat systems. I have been stabbed, shot and ganged up on many times in the past, so you and I do not differ when it comes to our primary reasons for studying and practicing, "to become a better fighter". When I mentioned 144 basic strikes, I was actually refering to Dekiti-Tirsia Siradas and its basic 12 of twelve. I try my best to fucus of just the first set of 12 since they more than cover the most common attacks and not overwhelm a highly inquisitive new practitioner loaded with hundreds of questions. I would just rather they learn the relationship between all of the inside angles for instance and how to deal with them than overload them with a high number of different strikes. I have noticed that over the few years I have been teaching, that most practitioners not only learn faster, but can actually executed attacks and counter-attacks more proficiently if I teach them all the in's and out's of angles #1, #2 and #5. Which conceptually covers the entire system in my head. Simplicity, advance to the left, right or straight up the middle and changing levels. Then I show the variations which lead to the other agles of attack.

    And I chose this system because even when I was a teenager I hated knives, wanted to be good at knife defense and was told there are 3 great bladesmen in the world. Hadji Yasser, Tatang Illustrisimo and Nene Tortal. So I kept hunting till I found one of them. Back then I just thought that FMA's were just stick fighting arts. DTS has saved my life twice. I pulled gun away from an idiot named Tim Poff down in Riley, hit'em with it and threw it in the trees. The other time some gangster punk decided he was going to stab me in a nightclub because I was standing on "his side of the bar". Fortunately he missed and unwillingly handed over the knife. Then I handed it to Greg, the bouncer and went on my way. So I guess that I didn't really seak the Malay and Central Asian systems to become a better fighter, I guess seaked after them to survive. You've been around the world a few times, you know very well how ****** it can be too. My other instructor is not well known and wishes to keepit that way. It has nothing to do with "international recognition". I am getting ready to go back to work again overseas, mostly in SE Asian and all the Turkic named countries. So again, even though I would lie to become a better instructor as time going on, it's not my primary focus.

    We are working on the arrangemnts to train Imbeded Team Training Members heading for Afghanistan and I doubt those gentleman care about tradition either, but on the other hand I do want to preserve the system for those willing to learn. I just do not want GT Nene's sub-system of another art. I truly feel that I owe him and his elders that.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2009
  6. Black Grass

    Black Grass Junior Member

    R. Mike Snow

    Please don't write in bold makes your posts hard to read.


  7. R. Mike Snow

    R. Mike Snow Chiseled Edge

    Sorry Bro, I do it cause I'm far sighted............
  8. pesilat

    pesilat Junior Member

    I'm on the road and didn't have time to read the entire thread so I apologize if this has already been mentioned.

    As I understand it the commonality of 12 angles is due, at least in part, to numerology. Apparently the number 3 is considered powerful and 12, being both a multiple of 3 and because its digits (1,2) add up to 3 is *very* powerful.

    I forget where I got this information but that's my understanding.

  9. sjansen

    sjansen New Member

    Humans, for some reason, remember patterns of three better than anything else. A twelve strike pattern is a multiple of three and therefore are easy to remember. The five basic strikes are easy to remember because they are few. You will find that most of the patterns in Kali, arnis and escrimas follow the multiple of 3's pattern. Heaven, sumbrada, 3 count, albretta, etc.
  10. Brock

    Brock Asha'man

    I heard something similar to this at a seminar. "You only have to learn them all if you plan on being an instructor. Otherwise, learn the ones you can fight with." I'm not sure whose seminar I was at when it was said though.
  11. Yeah, I think this is where the gentlemen in the thread of coming from.

    If you are an instructor you need to show all of the possible strikes and possibilities. How else is the student meant to refine the strikes to fit their own body / understanding? As students we can be greedy but (I should imagine) as instructors you need to be comprehensive and preserve the system (s) that were passed to you.

    I also like something which an instructor said to me once. When learning and applying it is like a diamond shape. First you need to learn all the techniques and then when you are truly skilled you only need a few and you don't need to think about what you used as it's instinct by then.

    Take Mathematics. If you wish to be a professor you need to know Trigonomic Calcus and a lot of pure math, first principles etc, etc. For most people all they really need is an arithmetic to establish if they are getting short changed...
  12. kabaroan

    kabaroan Kabaroan

    Hey, all, been overtaken by life lately, its nice to be back!

    In Estalilla Kabaroan, we have six strikes: Slash, Chop, Thrust, Butt, Slam and Gore.

    We follow eight lines of attack: Vertical and Radical (Downward, Upward); Horizontal (Right and Left) and Diagaonal (Over Right, Under Right, Over Left, Under Left). These form our "PHD" in Kabaroan - Perpendicular, Horizontal and Diagonal. :)

    Every strike can be delivered along every line (or angle).

    We use the octogon shape to represent out defense/blocks and they are typically perpendicular to the lines of attack but in application, this is not always so.

    Here is a photo of GM Ramiro discussing the lines of offense and defense at one of our Sacramento, CA seminars.


    The lines of attack can be used to target any part of the opponent and likewise. We attack the angle, we defend the angle.
  13. Guro Dave Gould


    Teaching vs. fighting

    Hi guys,

    I do understand the original premise of the thread but since its inception it has been "spun" off into a few different directions.

    When I take on a new student my goal is not to teach him a "system" perse but rather teach him how to survive a combative situation. Lameco Eskrima is a great "system" but it is a better "guide" to combative movement & development if trained accordingly with intention, being governed only by reality and held defiantly to the laws of cause and effect.

    When I teach Lameco Eskrima, as one of Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulites recognized standard bearers of the system, I teach in accordance with the original recognized curriculum of the system. Always starting by creating, developing and establishing the delivery system (basic foundation of combative movement). This primarily involves combative attributes such as: Weapon nomeclature, Abecedario, footwork, Speed, timing, power, position, recovery, non-telegraphic striking, perception & reaction, location & relocation principles, counter measures, counter to counter measures, Line of engagement, centerline violations and recovery, interrogating centerline, weapon deployment, etc...

    Once that a dependable foundation of combative movement has been laid only then do I begin to add to it technique, combative principles and combative concepts. In Lameco Eskrima Punong Guro Sulite held combative movement above and beyond the value of any one technique, concept or principle. So his basic drills were designed to transmit a specific function to the student. Once the function had been successfully transmitted and formatted the drill itself became "less valuable" as the function itself was what was most important, not the package itself by which the function was transmitted to the student. Once you have the required function you do not need the drill any longer, unless that is you intend to teach one day.

    I have seen Punong Guro Sulite change the structure of numerous drills in the system for this very reason, he felt that in current form the drill for instance could be re-engineered to transmit the function of the drill more easily if he added or deleted from it, and would do so until he devised a drill that transmitted that specific function to the student with absolute clarity. He understood that the drill was only a "package" which held any specific technique, concept or principle with the "function" being more important than the package which held them.

    Punong Guro Sulite once told me of a student that he was working with in the Philippines. This student wanted to be a champion and approached Punong Guro Sulite with a request that he train him to achieve this goal. The student told him that he did not want to train years in a "system" but rather he wanted to learn in as little time as possible to achieve his goal but he wanted something sufficient to assist him in becoming a champion.

    Punong Guro Sulite agreed and began his training. He trained the student diligently for 6 mos. on nothing more than a number 1 strike and combative attributes. After 6 mos. the student only wanted and had 1 strike but he had mastered: speed, timing, power, position, perception and reaction, counter to counter, non-telegraphic striking and recovery. His student entered in the local tournament and went through several matches winning them all. At the end of the day out of all of the participants of the tournament that day it was between him and the local champion of the tournament.

    The final match for the championship began and as with the other fights that he had won earlier that day the student of PG Sulite would just stand in his starting position and wait to be struck at by his opponent. After a few moments of moving his opponent struck at him, the student of PG Sulite would immediately counter with the only strike that he knew a #1 strike and would land awarding him a point. The whole match went this way. He would be struck upon and would evasively move the body part affected and then immediately counter strike with a #1 strike and would score point after point.

    The teacher of the opponent came out and argued with the referee that this was unfare that this student of PG Sulite was not an eskrimador as he only knew "one" strike, PG Sulite told the teacher of the other fighter that his student was an Eskrimador and that he only needed "one" strike to defeat his fighter. The referee agreed and let the match continue... in the end PG Sulites student who only knew how to move combatively armed with the knowledge of only one strike won the local tournament and was declared champion of that tournament at the objection of the teacher of the other fighter. Simplicity wins the day.

    Although these days other than Elite Military and Special Law enforcement personnel I usually only teach "teachers" and "masters" of other systems moreso than new students. My goals remain the same: To accept and introduce the combative situation itself as the very model for training. Refine ones movements until only the purest and most effective results come forward. The less distance that we move the less distance which will be required to recover center once violated. I teach the "Less is More" rule; the less that is required of you in combat the more that you will gain and the more that is required of you in combat the more vulnerable you become as opportunities will become readily accessible to your opponent in the after math of your own wide strikes and counters.

    I once asked Punong Guro Sulite how he makes a warrior? He responded that he takes raw material (A student) and over time and much diligent training and sparring he slowly chisels away everything that is not of a warrior and at the end of the process stands a warrior. When we change the way that we look at things the things that we look at change.

    Train well guys, ciao.

    Guro Dave Gould.
  14. maliksi77

    maliksi77 New Member

    Amen to this! On a related note, judo has its Gokyo consisting of 40 throws. While judo instructors are expected to know and be able to teach all of the throws, many will tell you that they only have two or three tokui waza, or favorite techniques. Believe me: you do not want to be thrown by a judoka who has practiced his favorite technique thousands of times in the dojo and in contests against uncooperative, resisting opponents.

    There have been many excellent points in this thread, although the conversation has deviated from the initial topic of why many FMA numbering systems consist of 12 strikes. Consider the arts of Doce Pares, Balintawak, Kombatan, Modern Arnis, Hinigaran Arnis, Serrada Eskrima and many others that feature 12 strike numbering systems.

    The matter of how the 12 strikes came to popularity may be one of those traditions (if you want to call it that, as the FMA probably have the least number of traditions and rituals among the Asian fighting disciplines; our aim being just to neutralize the opposition so we can go on living peacefully) handed down for one reason or another.
  15. adam t babb

    adam t babb New Member

    i always thoght it was to help learn the strikes easier.
  16. sjansen

    sjansen New Member

    It is, simpler is better when it comes to combat. The others are mostly for show when it comes to combat.

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