Discussion in 'Kali Ilustrisimo' started by eskrimakaliarnis.com, Mar 2, 2010.
Applying the art to "Grappling Range".
New video with GM Yuli Romo showing some of the "Bungga Santaku" (a.k.a "The Last chance!") syllabus.
Big thanks to Guro Oshima Ryosuke for the video. Enjoy
May I ask three questions?
1. What is it supposed to do?
2. How does it do it?
3. How can it be practiced?
Yes, by all means.
I will do my best to answer (though don't take my answers as gospel as GM Yuli is now overseas...).
Bahad Zu'bu "Bunnga Santaku" is the third era / "expression" of "Bahad "Zu'bu" (the threat of stick and knife).
Previously we had:
1) Bahad Zu'bu Kali Ilustrisimo
2) Bahad Zu'bu Mangtas Baraw (the top / highest of the knife/blade)
3) Bahad Zu'bu Bungga Santaku (rough translation "Elegant Elbow + Empty hand strikes).
This progression has taken GM Yuli 10 years or so to evolve following the death of GM Tatang Ilustrisimo. Since this time he has had time to think and reflect upon his decades of training. He has also had exposure to many top martial artists and had to develop programs for LEOs and Close-protection personnel.
In direct answer to "What is is meant to do?" well, it (the drill - not the art) is meant to protect you from the "Ambush" attack whilst training the three main principles of Bahad Zu'bu - Enganyo, Monitor and preparation. The live hand is trained in tactile reflex too.
2 - How?
In BZ we start these kind of training drills by controlling the opponent's wrist or elbow. This is preferred to make the attack as realistic as possible. In BZ both the guy initiating the drill and the guy responding are training. One guy is not just a passive dummy. So the "Attacker" perfects a non-telegraphic "blind-side" attack.
The "Defender" obviously responds to the grip and the drill progresses. Flow is important. It can be back and forth, or (as GM Yuli demonstrates) direct to the end. The ethos behind it is that if you can control your opponent it is easy to kill them.
The same precepts are applied to Counter-armed tactics and counter-unarmed tactics or blade v blade, stick v stick (as above).
To see the blade application check this vid out:
3) With a Bahad Zu'bu certified instructor
It sounds a cliche but a lot of the training is mentally challenging. Blindly imitating the moves will not give you a good understanding of the why? when? how?....Of course, the video is a good starting point and IMO GM Yuli's disarms (and body mechanics) are always a joy to watch.
Hope this helps and thanks for the question! Keep them coming.
thank you very much for this informative posting and, for sure, for the video clip !
One more question:
do you have a progression, where the importance from going with the flow shifts to going to some kind of more uncooperative interaction?
The beginning of this drill is the guy grabbing the elbow or wrist. The basic drill has 5 counts where the grab is answered and the partner struck. If it is un-armed v armed the partner is dis-armed and then fed the attack. The drill begins again.
As you can see in the videos, it is up to either guy if he wants to be "Un-cooperative" and finish the opponent (and therefore the drill). They can do this at any time from count 1 - 5. Both guys.
As mentioned, the drill continues the "Enganyo, Monitor, Preparation" precepts of BZ. Say you decide to break from the drill. If your partner is good at "Monitoring" he will check your move. If you do not have "Preparation" he will then go on to finish you. So we are taught to bait, watch what the opponent does and then respond accordingly.
As GM Yuli says "You can not go directly to the end because of Traffic". If you are playing basketball or soccer and want to score a goal you go to either side of the defender. Blindside and confuse them. You can't run through them. The players both have tricks (dribbles and step-overs) which are like Enganyos / baits. So we are taught to always use enganyo to hide the attack.
Also, GM Yuli always stresses that "drills" not to be a "routine", in which you impose your will on the other guy without monitoring what he is doing. He often remarks that some people are good at drills, but can't spar for example.
So when learning the drill both sides can not "flow". If both guys get good at "monitoring, enganyo, preparation" it can go on for a few repetitions.
It's an overused analogy (so I'll apologize in advance ) but take chess. White initiates the drill usually by moving the pawn. If the other guy is a virtual novice (doesn't monitor what white is doing, falls for a gambit / enganyo) it is possible to check-mate in just a few moves. If there is an equal matching of skill it can go on for a long time...
With these things it is better to see / feel. I guess it is "Just a drill" developed to strengthen the skills of the participants. I am not under any illusion that it is actual "Combat" but it is a great training aid / framework covering the 3 precepts, kappa (the landing of the hand), and footwork to name just a few.
GM Yuli's mentality is that if you can charm a snake you can kill it at any time. The drill has been introduced into a National Government Agency and they have also adapted it to be more direct. So it's possible but they are more learning by rote then learning all of the art.
Hope this helps.
that was actually the reason behind my question. It is easy to do interesting and "impressive" things in slow speed, where the other person is not really trying to hit you but is rather feeding you.
good to know
yes, indeed, very much. thanks for your effort to explain it to me
You are most welcome - thanks for the question.
I am sure that I didn't do GM Yuli enough justice as those are my observations and what I remember when he is teaching.
Going back to the progression of Bahad Zu'bu you will note that the first was BZ K.I. In this format there were a lot more drills than he teaches today. Ones like Retrida, Florete, Trankada, Recta Directa.... The basic abecedario was also taught as 12 strikes.
Now GM Yuli has moved away from those drills. When he teaches the basic strikes he teaches just 5 angles, or if he can just "Forehand and Backhand".
In his opinion people pay too much attention to memorizing the names of the drills and not concentrating on the movements. It is the movement that is important anyway. The movement from those drills are really applications of redonda and reverse redonda motion. Gm Yuli stresses to us the importance of those motions. Again, he also doesn't like those drills as they are too set up.
However, there must be some framework to develop these attributes as passing on the art to the regular student (especially slow ones like me!) is extremely difficult without them.
Are those drills considered Ilustrisimo drills? So what aspect in Zubu can still be considered K.I.R.O?
The live-stick, no pads sparring Raul.
Don't worry, we can debate this in person when you come over in August
Bahad Zu'bu is greatly influenced by K.I.R.O but is now a separate art. Hence the removal of "Ilustrisimo" from the name.
To be honest with you Raul, GM Yuli doesn't care about the names.
He always tells us "That guy says he is Ilustrismo, says he is this, says he is that but can he fight?"
That if we have "Bahad Zu'bu" on our t-shirt we must be able to prove it and carry the art.
Being able to quote the origin of the motion and the correct spelling of the motion is useless (unless you write and don't fight) if you can not apply the motion to combat.
That for me is the essence of Ilustrisimo.
We don't spar the way you spar. Do you have a video of your live-stick no-pad sparring? I've seen it but a video is better, right? Can you post it?
Is that a threat or a promise?
That is sooo obvious.
How can you know the essence of something you do not know? You always talk about fighting, when was the last time you fought?
I'm not wasting my time replying to your questions anymore.
Your personal agenda / crusade should now be evident for even "outsiders" to see too.
Also, please stop sending me "Love Letters" by PM.
I have asked 5 separate times for a day and time for our "date" but so far all you do is type.
You even suggested that somebody can attend "in your name" :laugh::laugh::laugh:
That's the funniest thing I've read in ages.
Email / txt me when you're back in August and I'll answer all your questions in person.
I'll even bring some flowers for you :coolorang
You don't have answers apparently but you can still reply like a man you know.
Of course I have a personal agenda and should be evident to even the dullest and the shallowest guys. I wrote it everywhere, duh!
Fail. Just replying to your insistence of date and time and you simply can't understand that I am a straight.
Yes because you are not my type.
True because they can straighten queer guys like you. Since you don't wanna face my guy right there right now then you can fly here right now or have someone to represent you or who else with you then I can also arrange how they will be straightened as well.
Only in your dreams Simon.
Sorry, Raul I just can't take you seriously anymore.
Anyway, I'm good thanks. I can wait until you come back in August.
Wow! Did you stutter when writing this :laugh:
In the mean time keep on fertilizing the internet and stay classy!:laugh:
Bring your date and time somewhere else. You know that you can't ask for a date and time, you are an outsider, a spectator, a stoker and a vendor. No one's buying.
You like to bring up the Old Man's name to inject credence to what you say as if you heard it directly from him. You don't even know that tres presadas is not K.I.R.O. You know what - tres pasadas is NOT either! Since you like flowers, you should know by now that florete doesn't translate to flower.
You said you'll going to ask the permission of the head of K.I.R.O. so have you visited Luneta lately? That applies not to just a noob like you but to all the zealous guys that you mentioned, masters, grandmasters or whatnut behind you.
"Somebody to fight in my name"
That still tickles me pink.
Let's see what's new pussycat....
hmmm - not much, eh?
Let me break it down as if I was talking to a 3 year old.
You're not as good as you think you are Raul.
I arrive at this conclusion because:
1) If you were you'd confirm a date and time for when you are back in August rather than send immature homophobic "insults". We both know you are back in August.
2) You would never offer up somebody else in your place. What's next? Playstation?!!!!
Who is "Your man" - your Dad?! :laugh::laugh::laugh:
Regarding Luneta, you are walking a dangerous line. Master Tony graciously allows any of us to go there and practice with him. Unlike you he is a real gent.
Don't worry, I'll be visiting again soon and I'm sure you'll name will pop up.
In the mean time you are breaking forum rules. I'm only responding as you won't give me a time and date but respond to my PMs with homophobic drivel.....Also, you are clinging on to every post I make on this forum like a hemorrhoid.
It is high time the people of this forum see what kind of guy you really are. What you are doing is not promoting brotherhood in the FMA and seeking to cause divisions with those we are friends with here in the Philippines.
Anyway, we don't have long to wait for you to return, do we?!
I know you can be as low as you can get Simon. I wasn't talking about practice, you apparently don't notice that we accept all groups and styles to play and train with us. I even competed under Modern Arnis and Mena group. The Ilustrisimos of Luneta are not elitist and entrepreneurs. We allow without restrictions and conditions other groups and individuals to watch us train without asking for a fee.
What I'm talking about was the PERMISSION you said you'll going to acquire from the head of K.I.R.O. Do you have it? Do all of you have it?
Also when you meet up with the HEAD of K.I.R.O., you might find a time to consult if the teachings you attribute to K.I.R.O. are precisely true and correct. The teachings don't evolve to individual's imaginings. He is the HEAD and the SOURCE so his is the final word.
Funny, anybody reading the internet would think that you are the final word on anything remotely Ilustrisimo :laugh:
Anyway, fear not. Wheels are in motion.
Why can't you just "Live and let live"? Why the constant need for bickering? Why the immature insults?
Why the need to always try and have the last word?!
All you need is love
You know, until a day or two ago, I tought you two guys had better stuff to do with your time... I have the utmost repect for both maestros - Diego and Romo, but I wonder if they have any idea about you people taking the task of being their proxies in a verbal duel like this. With one pillar of Ilustrisimo already deceased, if another two get twisted through this kind of crap, I am afraid the whole system is gonna collapse. Well, unless it turns out to be a bipedal one
I agree wholeheartedly. The pillar thing is one that I don't agree with. We never recognize any pillar thingy. There's only one head and one source.
Separate names with a comma.