MT: Revisionist History...Again!

Discussion in 'Modern Arnis' started by balita, Oct 6, 2008.

  1. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    Yes I have heard one side of the story.

    I have talked to others besides the Presas family to get more data as well.

    Much lines up, but I cannot fill all the wholes as you say.

    But, when I hear comments from GM Remy Presas mouth when he was alive such as:

    "Gee Remy you must be the best stick fighter in the world. (* Remy replies *) No, there are those in the Philipines who are better than me. There is one here in Michigan who trained with Anciong Bacon.

    There was another story of him and Delfin Lopez. Remy beat up Delfins nephew. So Delfin was going to come for Remy. Remy asked Manong Anciong if he could fight Delfin. Anciong would tell if you did not stand a chance. Anciong told him he could fight, with a little bit of hesitation. So Remy followed up and asked why the hesitation. Delfin is good, he may beat you. (* Delfin had also trained with Anciong *). He (Delfin) also carries a .45 with him. So be prepared.

    Remy left Cebu.

    This story was also confirmed by the Balintawak Lineage I train in and teach and as Manong Ted did not meet Remy in the PI but meet him here in the states many years later. But, Manong Ted stated that Remy had a reputation of fighting.


    Now as to stories, yes I know they come out.

    People have tried to claim Modern Arnis here in the States in the 70's. Remy had to show at the publisher to show his own book to prove to them that it was his system.

    I also know that old men tell tales and their nephews and grand children then tell them on the internet now.

    Hence my multiple source and nto a late to the party I am the creator and best person ever story.


    I also know about the racism from may Filipinos. I am not Filipino, so no matter how good I am, I will never be as good as a Filipino who has never trained, or does not even know they have local arts to study as well as the Japanese and Korean systems.

    I understand your point, I have tried o acknowldge your point and state my point back. You have not acknowledge, but instead tried to get me to train with you in the PI. Instead you have continued to tell me I am wrong because people tell tales or stories. Hmmm, I guess I will go with what is printed and from multiple sources until I can read and talk to mroe people in person to verify these claims. But you see this is me still being open minded, as I am always willing to learn. I get the feeling that people are out to just prove the "white boy" who obviously does not know the PI culture wrong.
     
  2. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    Sir,

    I support the comemnts that those listed above did contribute in the early days and did a lot to help the system over time. I have seen the writings and also talked to multile sources about this, and I have no problem accepted what you have stated.

    If I gave the impression that I did not, could you please show me what post here or elsewhere that gave you that impression from me? I would like to understand the miscommunication.

    Like I have said all along, multiple sources even verbal is good for me. Not multiple people are repeating the same thing that one person said, though.


    But as I stated in my previous post, I have seen people all look at Modern Arnis, and they think there is this CASH COW waiting to be slaughtered. The impression I get is that people want a piece of the pie. Why would a respect GM try to claim another system other than to take advantage?

    Why in Balintawak are there people who now claim that it did not come from V Bacon, but from their family instead? When it was Anciong's club in the back of the watch shop on Balintawak street in Cebu that gave the art its' name.

    So I understand big stories.

    I never said that Remy was anything but human. I can tell you stories that are not fit for print. But, those stories are about him and interactions that we shared or experiences in common with me but, tey show he is very human. He had desires. He made mistakes. He was also very good at what he did. To me he never made a claim of being the est in the world. He would tell people though that they should enjoy the training and it should be fun.

    But, as I stated in the last post, I am the "white boy" who obviously knows nothing as all my Filipino instructors are either dead or not teaching from a stroke and I am not connected with someone Filipino to keep me straight.

    I do not say this to you, but it is what I get from many people. That I must be wrong because I am not Filipino.

    It is very frustrating as these attitudes make it worse for me and others to try to continue with Filipino instructors. Why should we? No matter how good we might get, there is no hope of the slightest respect or mutual respect. There is just he is wrong as he is not one of us.

    As I stated first, I support your comments, as they are true, about the people you listed above.
     
  3. still lurking

    still lurking New Member

    are those data's biased? We don't know.


    nothing to do with the subject but love the humility.
    No different from the topic's claims re: The Doromals and Presas'



    BUt were the other people that have claimed otherwise interviewed?

    well said.

    I understand yours as well
    Is this directed at me? If it is, with all due respect don't know what you are talking about.
    never said you were wrong at all. Simply saying there's 2 sides of a story and that you nor I regardless of whether it's was passed on to you or I first hand will never know the truth.


    what's printed isn't always the truth just as whats reported isn't always the truth. Comn, we all watch CNN.

    I never made any mention of people being white boys. Don't know where that came from. I've never made claim of knowing more than you or any purple, yellow,brown race because I don't.

    being open minded is taking all stories with a grain of salt. We don't know what the truth is . There have been several stories relayed to me by several GM's I've studied under through the years and I've come to one conclusion, they're just stories and who knows what the truth is. therre are some stories that are already printed which other GM;s have refuted.


    Some GM's were simply my teachers and some have become friends who I should be biased with. Still, they are just stories .

    I have all the respect for GM Presas and every other FMA teacher out there. But unfortunately the politics will never end.
     
  4. timagua

    timagua New Member

    respect, please

    Mr. Parsons:

    It’s amazing how things can be misread. If you would take a look at my previous message, I stated the obvious fact of there being two camps in this discussion - with no mention of either being wrong or right. There was no belittling of anyone from any race, period.

    And as for respect, there was also my conclusion about everybody being entitled to his or her own opinion. How much more respect are you looking for?

    Finally, I am not a “Sir” but a “Ma’m,” thank you.
     
  5. el maldito de cebu

    el maldito de cebu New Member

    Thank you for being giving an open minded to what stories I share this stories are not made up by myself but some I reseacrch and some from the masters I had work with. the source of all knowledge about arnis eskrima is with in the visayas region because it is brought by the migrating datus of borneo by that time. I dont' know if in borneo there are some sitation that can prove this all where it all began.
     
  6. kruzada

    kruzada Punong Guro

    Rich,

    I'm sorry that you feel this way, and that you have had so many negative experiences training with Filipinos.

    Two of the most senior Instructors in my system are non-Filipinos and all of my Filipino students have nothing but the utmost respect for them. They are both great teachers, fighters and individuals of impeccable character, who would not respect those qualities?

    My student Guro Wilton Valerio has trained with my brother and some of my other teachers in the P.I. and I don't believe that he has ever felt disrespected or alienated by us or any other Filipinos for that matter.

    All of my students are like family to me and I hope that none of them feel the way that you do towards Filipinos, because they are a part of a Filipino family and are all equal in my eyes. Their actions and the quality of their character garner my respect and trust, not their ethnic background as Filipinos or otherwise.

    FYI, I have kicked out many students whom I felt that I couldn't trust, and 5 out of 6 of them were of Filipino descent.

    I wouldn't write off all Filipinos as being racist or elitist, doing so might end up making you appear guilty of the same in the eyes of others.

    Respectfully, as your brother in Modern Arnis,

    -Rich Acosta
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2008
  7. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    Mame,

    My apologies for the misunderstanding of gender. It was not meant nor intended to be an issue.

    Thanks
     
  8. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    Rich,

    Remy Presas and Ted Buot both Filipino taught me and treated me well. I have respect for them.

    There are others, who have said that as I am not filipino they must not have taught me everything. There are those that have said I cannot understand how to fight as I never grew up in the Phillipines. While I respect cultural identity, I do understand violence, and the use of improvised weapons in my personal experience.

    There are some who are friendly to me. But, mostly I get the "Come Train with me, so you can learn it for real" offer. I find this insulting. Not to me but to those who taught me.

    I make no claims to be the best at anything. Only that I know what I know and that I continue to work with my peers to improve myself and to help others.

    I respect that from your comments you do not stand for elitism or racism. I also respect your comments about appearances of myself. But the problem is for me that I find myself replying in kind. I do keep an open mind. I do not like Racism and Elitism, and fight against them. I do not turn people away based upon sex, religion, race, or what have you. But the number of Filipino's even within the Modern Arnis Community that have told me that they could help me out if I only trained with them. There are ways to make an offer, and then there are ways to make an offer.

    I know we have never met, but I would lok forward to a meeting to talk.

    Thanks
     
  9. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I've heard this so many times for so many arts...Kung Fu in the 70s, Karate in Japan in the 50s, and so on. I've heard it said of Kanbun Uechi, who learned Kung Fu in China in the late 1800s and brought it to Okinawa as Uechi-ryu Karate; I've heard it said of Gichin Funakoshi who brought Okinawan Karate to Japan and allegedly watered it down to create a weaker Shotokan for the Japanese.

    I'm sure it happens from time to time, but most often I think a teacher is happy to get a good student and is looking forward to teaching that student.

    Of course, I'm also not sure that there are secrets deeper than good basics, hard work, and live training.
     
  10. el maldito de cebu

    el maldito de cebu New Member

     
  11. Am in full agreement with you two.

    As my Master Says:

    "Simple basics - most advanced!"
     
  12. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Yes, that's my thought too. I do believe most arts have a "signature move" or approach at the advanced level, and maybe some special counters for very similar styles, but not deep secrets that wouldn't be found by proper practice of the basics. (I'm sure there are exceptions to this.) As a friend who was a state trooper and arnis instructor used to say, "I've never had to use my ASP for anything other than a basic forehand strike--I'm still waiting for a chance to use something else, even a backhand." Good basics well practiced will get you pretty far!
     
  13. el maldito de cebu

    el maldito de cebu New Member

    Yap" the most basic strikes that you mastered will be the most rffective weapon you can use in the time it dictates. practice2x its the key to success
     
  14. kruzada

    kruzada Punong Guro

    Rich,

    I wouldn't take anything that those people have to say too personally. As you mentioned, they are just trying to get you to study with them. I have experienced the same kind of coaxing but minus the reference to my ethnicity. What it boils down to is a simple sales pitch, nothing more. I don't think it really has anything to do with race.

    I would be happy to discuss this topic and more in person or over the phone if you like. You can reach me on my cell 201-674-6609 after 5PM EST, also feel free to visit us in NYC or Red Bank, NJ if your ever in the area. I'd love to chat and mutually exchange some Arnis techniques if you like.

    Regards,

    Rich
     
  15. el maldito de cebu

    el maldito de cebu New Member

     

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