MT: Revisionist History...Again!

Discussion in 'Modern Arnis' started by balita, Oct 6, 2008.

  1. balita

    balita <B>News Bot</B>

    Revisionist History...Again!
    By Dan Anderson - 10-06-2008 01:20 PM


    Hi All,

    Check out this blog.

    This sort of crap really ticks me off, especially 7 years down the road. Here was my reply in another forum.

    I went to the Visayan Filipino martial Arts blog to check out the story. Interesting. I'll answer a couple of Max Maun's questions. (whole story at this link)

    "If Modern Arnis was established in 1968 as stated, how could the Lisondra brothers earn rank in that system on December 11, 1964 or 4 years before it was founded?"

    Remy Presas started Modern Arnis in 1957. He may have incorporated it in 1964 but he formulated it in 1957.

    "Mr. Lisondra also stated that he went back to Bacolod in 1971 while GM Presas stayed in Manila . Why did GM Presas stay in Manila ? Who were the known people associated with GM Presas during that time period?"

    It is well known that he was working with Roland Dantes in the film industry at that time. I believe Vicente Sanchez was working in the film industry then as well and worked with Prof. Presas.

    "On page 51, Mr. Lisondra admitted that their group was practicing a system of techniques called Corridas that was later renamed to Tapi-Tapi. What then is corridas? How did it become to be called Tapi-Tapi by GM Presas? Who were the original practitioners of Corridas? And most importantly, who were the real originators of Modern Arnis as a system? Who prepared the original manuscript of the book Modern Arnis? What happened to the original manuscript?"

    Corridas is principle part of balintawak eskrima training. Remy trained in balintawak eskrima under Rodolfo Moncal, Timoteo Maranga and Ancion Bacon. From my limited training in balintawak and extensive training in Modern Arnis, Tapi-Tapi appears to be a derivative of the original corridas.

    "Let me start in the mid 1960s when I was still an elementary pupil at UNO-R in Bacolod City . Prof. Remegio “Remy” Amador Presas of Hinigaran was employed as college PE instructor at the university, teaching Karate and Judo as PE elective subjects during that time. During that period, Prof. Presas was popular and known as a Karate and Judo man, rather than a stickfighting instructor."

    It is also well known that arts like karate and judo were more popular than the indigenous arts at that time. It is not surprising that he was known as a karate/judo man when that was what he was employed as.

    "There were also other things revealed to me by my uncles which I personally believe should not go public and must be kept and buried in order not to destroy the legacy of today’s Modern Arnis. It is best kept in secret to preserve the good memories of Col. Pedro “Pete” P. Doromal Jr., Capt. Nelson P. Doromal, and Prof. Remegio “Remy” A. Presas. These three people are no longer with us today."

    In other words, to commemorate the 7th anniversary of Prof. Presas' passing away, it's now time to bring up "history" that can't/won't be verified so that the good memories of these men may be preserved. You must be well schooled in American politics to come up with a line like that.

    The duel, the borrowing of the manuscript which was never returned (if so, call it for what it was - theft) may all be true but why wait 7 years if you already had this data?

    "There are still people alive today who know the story and could vouch for its authenticity. Mr. Julio Euraba and Col. Atty. GM Marcelo “Pope” C. Jalandoon, Ph.D., of Talisay City, Negros Occidental are just two of them. I would rather not mention the names of the other people to respect their privacy. However, I could easily refer anyone who wishes to check with them in private."

    Now that you have come public, why not have them do so as well?

    "Let me again say that I am not putting anyone into the bad light. I am merely correcting an error which has continued for decades. Let history be right and truth prevail about modern arnis. Mabuhay ang lahing Filipino! Mabuhay ang Arnis!"

    And let me say, "Gook Luck, Uncle Buck." This not merely 'correcting an error.' Whether true or not, this is ONE MAN (you) who is talking smack about one of the two men (the other being Guro Dan Inosanto) who have successfully done more than any other to bring the Filipino Martial Arts into the world eye.

    Unless you can back up your data with creditable sources who are willing to come out and corroberate your story, this is sour grapes - pure and simple.

    IF you can corroberate this story, I will be the first to publicly apologize to you for my antagonistic remarks.

    Dan Anderson
    Senior Master Remy Presas Modern Arnis


    ------------------------------------ Post Bot - FMA Feed
  2. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    We need a definitive history of the subject by a real historian!
  3. tellner

    tellner New Member

    Lotsa luck on that :whatever:
  4. still lurking

    still lurking New Member

    I have heard a story from a GM who was a witness to some of these accounts. Pete Dormal vs. Presas Brothers. He said he was willing to act as a witness in front of a judge if need be and went as far as saying "as God is my witness" "I was there, I was asked to be a witness"

    Although I have no reason do doubt this witness, his story went in one ear and out the other.

    Getting ticked off about such stories is not gonna come up with the truth. It's their story. Let it die with them. We all have nothing to gain . Just focus on what it is you do and let them fight their own wars which is nothing more than mere words.

    I have respect for all these people but worship none. Every GM has a story to tell just as every student has one as well. IN the end, it's only a story. These stories have no bearing in our lives unless you let it get to you. Everyone has had an impact on someones life good or bad.

    We've all learned from this guys one way or another. One thing I've learned from them is, let them tell the story of their lives but let it not affect mine.
  5. timagua

    timagua New Member

    Thank you still lurking for a common sense response to the post “Revisionist History Again.” A sure way to spark a controversy is by reacting in the way the writer of that post did.

    It would do us well to remember that just because new information comes up does not mean it’s necessarily invalid. Max Maun’s statements may not jibe with what is comfortable and has been widely circulated, but it simply represents an opposing viewpoint. And the timing (“why wait seven years...”) does not automatically disqualify the information; perhaps no magazine editor was brave enough to run the piece beforehand. The phenomenon of the Internet has changed this limitation forever.

    The statement in its entirety is in the current issue of Rapid Journal, the leading martial arts publication in the Philippines. Editor Daniel Go is about as neutral and open-minded a person as you can find. If he, a native Pinoy and true lover of the FMA, has no trouble running Max Maun’s article, it seems irrational for anyone to jump and utterly condemn its contents.

    It is normal for the exponent of a certain style to be protective of what he believes true about his lineage. It seems, however, that we as mature martial arts practitioners should have ability to understand and accept that alternate accounts and points of view may exist. This holds true regardless of discipline – karate, kempo, jiu jitsu, kung fu...and arnis.

    Sa lahat ng bagay ay may iba’t ibang paniwala at katotohanan.
  6. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    My issue with new information is not that it is new or questions what is accepted, but how it is presented and what type of references are used to back up their statements.
  7. still lurking

    still lurking New Member

    I saw nothing wrong with the way it was presented and he was just relaying stories handed down to him just like the info in Dans Andersons reply was handed down to him. It didn't seem confrontational at all and apologetic if he offended anyone. I guess we all have our own way of intrepreting texts .
  8. el maldito de cebu

    el maldito de cebu New Member

    you know bros. thats the problem of history when its not doccumented properly then the stroy it self if verbally being told you know some traits with the filipino people, no offense to all of us. ussually stories handed out is change due to adding and subtracting of stories, so I encourage all the master of all anis system practitioners as early as now before you become a big thing in the future start already your small doccumentation of your all self document of your own system so that it would not mis lead because it is already written.
  9. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    Yes we do.

    Can you list multiple people with different sources that same similar things?

    I know there are differences from the experience from what Dan shared with GM Remy and what I shared with him. But when we sit and talk over a beer or pop history we fill in holes but the stories are in the same time line and with the same basic story. While others seem to just come out of no where with no other sources, than themselves, and people are jsut supposed to believe.

    That is the part I have a problem with.
  10. el maldito de cebu

    el maldito de cebu New Member

    in my opinion to link it all we should look for the ancestry of the people behind like the 10 bunian datus that migrated in negros and panay island I think there responsible for developing arnis. and in cebu the ancestry or the blood lin of datu lapu-lapu wha are there descindants. one example of this is the old member of doce pares named S.Tupas he is the desindant of the tupas clan. Rajah tupas is the rulling chieftain of the southern tribe in cebu. the question there thus martial art alredy existed in his era or just being discovered and developed?
  11. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    As GM Remy Presas trained with his Grandfather ( Negros Occidental ) that is not good enough? Lineage and training there? No it all has to come from someone who shows up late to the game. Hence why I asked for sources to go verify and see correlations between multiple sources.

    He also trained with others from Cebu including the Balintawak family. Balintawak is a specialized Stick Dueling developed / created by GM V. Bacon. GM Remy Presas trained with him and others of Balintawak. So I guess this training was also from this person who claimed to teach GM Presas how to fight.

    That is my problem, on how it was phrased and how it was brought out.

    I mean I could learn from everyone I cross sticks with, but does this make me their student?
  12. el maldito de cebu

    el maldito de cebu New Member

    you know bro. it makes you an indirrect student since GM presas was jsut a student of the balintawak but if you want to be really trained with the source I know some of the GM here in cebu I can personally guide you and endorse you to them if you happen to visit cebu you can contact me in my phone (032)4149918 or 09162652720 I can personnally indorse you to GM Maximo Caballes. He is already the founder of Balintawak Arnis de Caballes it is a new system that he formulated about anis.
  13. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    Thank you for the offer.

    I did train for over 8+ years at least one private a week sometimes more with Manong Ted Buot. Manong Ted, taught at the Balintawak Club with GM Bacon. I also trained with multiple other students in our Flint Club for that same time period. I also worked and taught and helped other students who were training with Manong Ted during that period. I would still be training with him if he did not have a stroke in December of 2005.

    This is where I got most of my Balintawak knowledge is from Manong Ted. I did as you stated get some or little from GM Presas.

  14. el maldito de cebu

    el maldito de cebu New Member

    a ok try to ask manong ted if he knows GM maximo caballes he is also balintawak here in cebu
  15. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    The big issue here is someone coming late to the game when their information cannot be challenged by the person they are accusing of something. Why wait so long. Why not challenge GM Presas while he was alive? No it looks funny and a little strange to wait this long and then try to recapture something. Having said all that no one who ever met the Professor would not acknowledge that he was extremely talented and that skill set is what set him apart from many people.
  16. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    I should be seeing him on Friday after Thanksgiving at the latest.

    I will ask the question, but I cannot guarantee an answer.
  17. Brian Johns

    Brian Johns Junior Member

    I wholeheartedly agree with this statement by Brian VanCise; more specifically on the issue of why wait so long after Professor's death to come out with these statements. Very very suspect in my opinion. And yes, Professor's skill set was quite phenomenal.

  18. still lurking

    still lurking New Member

    You guys may fill in the holes but unfortunately, that isn't our way of doing things in our culture which is why we are in this big mess of is it kali, arnis, etc.etc.

    If you think folktales do not exist today, guess again.

    You've heard one side of the story which came from GM Presas, there's another side to those stories too. No one really knows what the truth is other than those who were there . Just because this and that GM said it doesn't mean it's accurate . All GM's have their own version to their story telling.
  19. el maldito de cebu

    el maldito de cebu New Member

    yap your right bro. every arnis,kali etc. has its own version. imagine the phils. having 7,107islands and almost all of it arnis existed. here i cebu I know quite few stories, but I'm sure that the noerthern style of arnis is influence by the visayas region. I can add up some story for food for tought. do you know the best fighters that exist in the spanic era are the boholanos? then question? why is bohol not the originators of arnis why was it is cebu nor the panay island? that is why I'am sharing my side of the stories so that every body would learn including me in your side of the story if we jsut help it all to link all the storie instead of critizise one another we must help one another to find out the truth that there was. I joined this org. so that I will learn what is missing in my stories. now another question? why is bohol now does'nt have its own FMA? instead they embraced foriegn martial arts like karate and taekwondo in fact that in the philippine history they are the best warrior in that time? I'll give the answer when some one would reply this post. Thanx for having an open mind of this thread[​IMG]

    EL maldito de cebu
  20. timagua

    timagua New Member

    the open mind

    So far there seem to be two divided camps on this matter: the native boys and girls (including me) who realize – and admit – that all may not be what you read about in books and magazines, and then the westerners who have been fed – and absolutely believe – what the American media has circulated since about 1975 when Prof. Remy came to the U.S.

    The statements by still lurking and el maldito de cebu ring true because, unlike the Japanese who were great about documenting ryu lineages going back centuries, the Filipinos did not keep meticulous documents on successions. The original emphasis has always been just to use our fighting arts to defeat the enemy. The linear, scholarly, western-based method of proving or disproving an historical account then becomes impossible to apply.

    There are many, many accounts of the contributions made to the art of modern arnis by Grandmasters including Ernesto A. Presas, Roberto Presas and Fred Lazo, as well as lesser known figures like Guillermo “Doc” Lengson, that have largely remained ignored in western circles. This doesn’t mean they’re not valid.

    In the end, everybody is entitled to his or her opinion. If our American cousins choose to subscribe to the popular version, that’s their choice.

    The mind is like a parachute – it works best when open.

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