Modern Arnis Mania in FMA Digest

Discussion in 'Modern Arnis' started by The Game, Jun 18, 2008.

  1. The Game

    The Game Pain

    It was created by Remy A. Presas, over a lifetime, a good part of which his family in the PI unfortunately had little experience with.

    Why should we? Where were they for all those years?
    Much of those articles simply put read as "My husband left me and now I want mine" and "Our dad left us, we hardly saw him, only know what a few people told us, but now we want our cut".

    Maybe it is they who lost credibility in the numerous wrong statements they made, and by mostly dismissing and disrespecting the non-PI Modern Arnis people. While they went to school and had no contact with GM Remy, these same people they just pissed all over were out hanging, banging, sweating and bleeding Arnis.

    I think most people will continue to do what GM Remy said for them to do. Make the art their own, and promote it. Their additional pieces of the whole are welcome, but I see no reason to abandon solid instruction for yet another who lacks much of the later years of development of the art. The "only a Filipino can be a master" claim bothers me, as it always has. Then again, maybe only a black man can be a master of Caporeria, and only a Japanese man can really master karate. Bit bigotted to think that way isn't it?

    The "Only Legit Arnis is from Us, Everyone else made fortunes, now give us our due" crap is just that. Crap.

    Let them put out their own books, their own videos, and travel the world doing seminars, and live or die on their OWN merits. Not just the coattails of their late father's name. Let them as they claim GM Remy wanted them to do, make their OWN name.

    I think the "we're entitled because we're Fillipino and we're Presas" attitude will close alot more doors to them than they will open.

    Also the whole "Our mom is the only one who can grant high rank" stinks. That was my opinion in the whole "You have to go to Mrs. Parker for knighting" crap in Kenpo too. Co founder doesn't mean she has the techical knowledge, especially if she hadn't seen or spoken to Remy in decades.
  2. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I love that! That's a great attitude.
  3. The Game

    The Game Pain

  4. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Darth Vindicatus Supporting Member

    Cross posting this here and at MartialTalk.

  5. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member


    It doesn’t conflict at all. According to you, Junior said “practicing”. Practicing is not teaching. When this topic came up in the conversation, I asked him for clarification. I even told him that I disagreed because I teach better than many Filipinos that I have seen. He reassured me that I was mistaken which I thought was amusing based on what I have seen on his videos as well as in person.
  6. Brock

    Brock Asha'man

    He was also referring to the group that was there and we were all Senkotiros people. That may have factored in. He just never struck me as someone that would make that statement. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I think you're lying. You don't strike me as the type that has so much free time that you need to start crap on internet forums for something to do.
  7. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

  8. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

    The Presas family edition of FMADigest is evidence of just how people can’t help themselves. It gave the Presas family the opportunity to share information about modern Arnis history. Instead it was used to promote a political agenda. I am good friends with Ed Parker Jr. and he does not try to fool anyone about his technical knowledge of this father’s art. He will regularly refer people to his father’s senior students. He openly admits that there are people more educated and skilled than he is. But there is no one more knowledgeable about Parker’s Kenpo history than he is. He is a priceless source of knowledge of his father’s art.

    I feel that the Presas family could have served in the same way. Even thought the children were mostly children at the time, they still had access to their mother, and can fill in many of the blanks about the development of Modern Arnis in the Philippines. I can’t see them as a source for technique. Even their seminar hosts have commented on Junior’s need for improvement. (And to be fair, no one should be comparing anyone to Remy Sr. because there is no comparison.) I was told that they wanted to try to unite the modern Arnis community and to some extent they have, but not the way they wanted. Instead to teaming up with them, it seems that different modern arnis factions have teamed up against them in response to their article. I for one, hope that they can resolve some of these issues and move forward with their lives.

    I have said my peace on the matter and now I'm done!:bow:
  9. Dan Anderson

    Dan Anderson Member

    Well, the switchboards certainly have been lit up recently. A couple of points.

    1. Mrs. Presas' history might be totally correct. It's hard to say as I wasn't there. Having authored a number of books I know that the 'flavor' of the first two books in his name was certainly different than the book published in the US. From being around Remy personally I know he wasn't the 'sit around and type out a manuscript' type. The degree of involvement that she had in the formulation of Modern Arnis, especially in the naming of techniques and curriculum and the like - again, I wasn't there so I can't say. But we do get to point number two next.

    2. A key point to consider is that Mrs. Presas had virtually nothing to do with the development of Modern Arnis once Remy fled the PI back in 1975. She was not there when he met Prof. Wally Jay, a truly important turning point in the development of MA. She wasn't there when he met George Dillman, either. She was in the PI all the time he was here. I spent a good number of hours with him (as did many others) and I never once hear one word about him being in communication with her when he was in the USA. According to a post made by Dieter Knutel, the last time RP was in the Philippines he didn't contact her then, either. He did contact his first cousin, Cristino Vasquez, and his second cousin, Rene Tongson to get them to organize IMAF Philippines to reunite Modern Arnis players in the homeland.

    3. I find it hard to believe there is some genetic 'configuration' that would make someone from one the home country be better at that martial art than someone from a different country or genetic background. That Remy Jr. 'has the blood of the Grandmaster' within him matters not from any scientific data that I am aware of. Physical training is physical training - hard work and buckets of sweat dripping from a person over a long period of time is what makes the skill. Culturally it is a different matter. I don't, for a minute, believe that I would come close to understanding the Filipino culture better than a native from that area. But this is understanding the culture I am talking about.

    4. Neither knowing the culture nor the laws of the land of the Philippines, I cannot comment on the marital status (divorced or not) of RP and RP but he does have a widowed wife and two children up in Victoria, BC whose existence cannot be denied. Remy Jr. and his brother and sisters do have a half brother and half sister.

    5. As to valid recognition, I have Remy Presas' signature on every Modern Arnis certificate I possess. I (and a number of others) am a first generation student of his. I have trained personally with him, taken my lumps from him, gotten my smiles from him. I do not feel the need to recertify in a new unit of time in the art he personally trained me in.

    6. RP okayed my curriculum as valid. I value my status as an independent. MA-80 is independent of one and all save for one person, me.

    7. All in all, I wish that RP made things abundantly clear long before his death as to the whats, whys and wherefores of Modern Arnis in the first place. Then when he died there wouldn't be the ghost of Ed Parker looking down on us sadly shaking his head. All of us who Prof. Presas trained are family, in one way or another. Tim Hartman said it the best when he said that Modern Arnis is one big dysfunctional family. I think the leaders of the different groups share one essential thing in common - our passion for the art the founder taught us. That is one thing I keep in perspective whenever the political stuff rears its ugly head, we are all passionate about what we were taught and what we believe.

    Dan Anderson
  10. Datu Dieter

    Datu Dieter Junior Member

    Respect in Modern Arnis

    The Presas family is asking for respect that they don't get.
    But respect is a 2 way street if you don't give it, you don't get any.

    And what I have found myself and what I know from others, they do not care about any other western Modern Arnis instructor except of Kelly Worden.

    They say they only accept Modern Arnis ranks, that were tested under them.
    And I agree with James Miller, that they give the appearance, to have 9th Dan. But who gave it to them?
    I have my 6th Dan and Datu title signed by GM Remy and my 7th Dan is signed by Roberto Presas, Rodel Dagooc, Vic Sanchez, Jerry Dela Cruz, Roland Dantes, Christino Vasquez, Renen Tongson, Bambit Dulay, Prof. Sorteco and Salvador Demaisip.
    Who signed their 9th Dan certificate?

    And if it was nobody, than there should some reaction arise here at least compared to Dan's 8th Dan or Tim's 9th Dan, because then the 9t Dan is self given.
    Or did it come from Rosemary Presas, who had what rank in Modern Arnis?

    They state themselves, that the highest Modern Arnis ranks they know of are the 8th Dans of Rodel, Vic, Roland and Jerry.
    That means, that they did not get any high rank.

    Remy Jr. stated, that he was the first black belt under Remy.
    But if I recall right, he must have started with Modern Arnis around 1969. Bebing and Rudy Lisondra got their black belt already at 11th of Novemer 1964. They were Remy's first Modern Arnis black belts and for sure 5 years earlier, than Remy Jr. STARTED with Modern Arnis.

    This is what I mean, that the history is not correct.
    A statement is made and we shall believe that this is the way it is.
    No, this is the way MARPPIO sees it and the way MARPPIO handles it.
    Datu equals 6t dan. Yes, within the new MARPPIO system, maybe true, but not with GM Remy Presas.
    The Datu tilte was a tilte for achievement and leadership within Modern Arnis. Not connected to any rank. I know definitively 3 of the 6 Datus of GM Remy did not have 6th Dan when they got the title, with one I am not sure and it does not matter who had which rank when we got the Datu title from GM Remy.

    Modern Arnis was founded by the Presas family.
    To the best of my knowledge, Remy Presas founded Modern Arnis.
    He travelled around the Philippines, learned different styles and fought his way to be a respected Balintawak fighter.
    Quote Rosemary Preas article from the family Digest, page 6:
    Everytime he learnes something, she would change it. In fact, everything he learned, she modified.
    Well with what Arnis qualification?
    There may be no doubt, that she was very helpful with the book and the organizing of Modern Arnis, but it was in the end Remy Presas himself, who was teaching and fighting, making a name for himself and for his Modern Arnis.
    And in the US he proved clearly, that he could do quite well in Arnis without Rosemary changing everything he had ever learned.
    There are some facts, we in the west can check and we find, that the MARPPIO viewpoint are not correct in many quite important regards.
    Many facts we can not check, because nobody of us were there at that time. But knowing, that a lot of the other things that can be checked were not right it leaves a bad taste to all the statements, that cannot be checked.

    Regarding the acceptance of ranks and respect:
    One student of mine in France, with a 5 years experience of Doublete Rapilon and 2 Modern Arnis seminars with me wrote to Remy Jr. telling him, he likes Modern Arnis. Remy Jr. answer was: invite me. So he did. They made a 2 1/2 day seminar and the french guy got 1st Dan, Lakan Isa.
    Next year, 2nd seminar, the guy gets 3rd Dan, Lakan Tatlo. The name of this former student of mine is Anthony Pousset and you can find him on th MARPPIO list of recognized black belts.
    My student in France trains Modern Arnis since 11 or 12 year and holds 2nd Dan, Lakan Dalawa. And he is very good. But numerical he is below the person with now 4 Modern Arnis seminars.

    Now Remy Jr. is asking for respect.....

    When MARPPIO took over writing : "Meet the real heirs of Modern Arnis" I wrote him a long email asking many questions. I never got an answer.
    I wrote it again a few months later and got a reply, that soon the questions will be answered, what never happened.

    Why, if he is the inheritor of the system, did he change the names of the techniques, the name of the ranks, the color of the black belts, the titles of the black belts, the uniforms and in the end the techniques?
    If he is the inheritor of the system, why is everything else different to the system all the others knew?
    And I am a little familiar with the older Modern Arnis from the Philippines, and it is different to that too.

    Respect must be earned and cannot be asked for. And this is all Remy Jr. Rosemary and MARPPIO are doing in the family issue of ther FMA Digest: Asking for respect and not working and communication, that this respect is given to him.

    And drawing the racist card: only a Filipino can be a Arnis master is ridiculous.
    Remy himself NEVER had any attributes like that.
    And other Filipinos neither. When I am in the Philippines (from the 5th of July I will be there again for a month), I am treated with high respect by all the Masters, Senior Masters and Grandmasters like Christino Vasquez, Rene Tongson, Rodel Dagooc, Jerry Dela Cruz , Roland Dantes and others.
    They call me Datu. In the Philippines! Not with a smile on theirtr faces but because they respect the decision, that GM Remy made. Because they respect GM Remy. And they respect work, dedication and loyalty. Things, that are very imortant in the martial arts and filipino martial arts.
    And this is also, why these Masters and Grandmasters are respected.

    And we, the students of GM Remy Presas, are all very loyal to him, GM Remy Presas sr.

    We follow the wishes that he gave us. Each and every one in his own way. Remy Jr. is not in this picture. And the way he and MARPPIO acted and act now, they will never be with most of the Modern Arnis practitioners.

    They may be successful in creating a new branch of MARPPIO Modern Arnis and I wish them good luck, but there is and will be no unification under the banner of MARPPIO or Remy Presas Jr.

    We try in the Wordlwide Family of Modern Arnis, WFMA, to do that. Unify Modern Arnis in a system of brothers and sisters of a family. Nobody is above the other. We are students of Remy and we respect each other, because we come from the same source, even though the organizations and systems now go different ways.
    By far not all Modern Arnis groups are in the WFMA, but this whole thing ONLY works, when one respects the other and does not try to interfere in the internal affairs of other groups.
    And that nobody says: I am your boss now.

    It works with us so far.
    Remy Presas jr. and MARPPIO are not part of it.

    One last thing: I was the editor for the 50 years of Modern Arnis magazine. A magazine, that honored GM Remy Presas, the founder of Modern Arnis to the 50 years anniversary of Modern Arnis.
    I wrote to about 30 individuals, if they want to contribute to the magazine, to get as many facets of his personality and life as possible.
    I also wrote to Rosemary, Demetrio, Mary Ann and Remy Jr. (as well as to Ernesto and Roberto with many others)

    18 people did answered and an excellent magazine about 50 years of Modern Arnis was the result. Unfortunately without any contribution of MARPPIO and the family.
    Remy Jr.'s was the only of the family and MARPPIO that answered. His brief answer was:

    I wish I could help you your undertaking but, I am very busy with the workout I don't have time to contribute with your project.

    OK, that means he had no wish to contribute to a project, that honors his father and the system, that he claims to be the heir in.

    So much about respect.


    Dieter Knüttel
    Datu of Modern Arnis

    My personal Arnis Website
    ABANICO Video Productions
    Modern Arnis Germany
  11. The Game

    The Game Pain

    It's simple. "Give me money, otherwise I don't like you"
  12. The Game

    The Game Pain

    Seems someone's feathers are ruffled.
    -posted on another forum by Jerome Barber-

    Interesting that the same logic doesn't extend to others, who are instead painted as shady, fraudulent or otherwise suspect.

    Then why the years of active and continued participation in those fights, and the encouragement of others also likewise engaged?

    According to comments made by Mr. Rich Parsons, there were no lunch breaks during that event.

    Maybe Tim was too busy dealing with the NorShadow matter?

    Would Dan Anderson or Dieter or anyone else who was there be able to say if they saw Tim on the floor, or if they had any meals with him during that event?

    Or, maybe it was that you couldn't promote an event that would bring in the big names while playing net games. If you've gone beyond Modern Arnis, why do you continually feel the need to try and validate yourself against Tim Hartman and the WMAA?

    What's in it for them? Why should they? Why should people who passed higher tests allow a lower rank to dictate terms? The WMAA is an international organization whose members are often successful commercial school owners. You run a collage gym class in a community collage. Quite a different thing. Maybe the reason they refuse your invitations is that they don't trust you because you aren't exactly one to trust when it comes to such things? Or maybe they feel that you're simply not worth bothering with. After all, would you accept the challenge of some back yard master who you thought was a hack? Well, you might, but most people have better things to do with their time and lives than spend them seeking validation for their existence.
  13. Datu Dieter

    Datu Dieter Junior Member


    I trained with Tim at least during the session of Davud Mohammad. So he participate and was on the mat there.
    And I had a very interesting an intensive talk with Tim and Dan either Friday or Saturday night about Remy's at least 3 wills. So at least one night he was there too. I cannot remember about the other night.

    OKJ he was not there for breakfast (he did not live in the hotel) and there was as far as I remember not organized lunch time, which meant, that the people did not go to the classes that were running but got something to eat instead. Very disturbing.

    But what has this to do with the Family edition of the FMA Digest and Remy Jr.?
  14. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    I was there for that discussion as well and it was Dinner after all the training was ended, I think on Friday night.
  15. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    Well I was at a so called symposium.

    The host played internet games and played them including a nice showman style of revealing the "real" person behind the account. Unfortunately the person "named" had no clue about half the post or about other features the account had used online.

    As to no lunch, that is true people had to choose to either eat lunch while others trained or not eat at all. I apologized to Bram Frank and walked off his training area and got something to eat or I would not have been able to make it through the rest.

    This "great" event had people upset because there was money that went in but there was none that went out to the instructors who paid their own transportation and room and board. Having worked at a "U" and knowing how clubs and staff get discounts on room rentals I was surprised by the response by the host that all the costs went into the room/gym for training.

    Many of those teaching did not have skill sets to be there. Others, did not participate in others training and that was Barber and Bolden. When they were on the floor it was only with their students and always watching.

    I am tired of this and people like this who have no clue but insist that others listen to them.

    I also would not wish to bring up the racist and anti-semantic comments made by the host, but as I still find a bad taste in my mouth. I understand that the host is African American and that certain terms of endearment can be used between friends and while used by others would be a horrible insult. But when the host states that this is the feelings of those not present and fully supporting him, then I take insult.
  16. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member


    I think that we are all in agreement that the event in question was not what the host said it was. I would prefer to keep this thread on Modern Arnis. If we are done with that topic I think it's best to move on. There is a thread on the symposium on Martial Talk for those whom want to continue.
  17. Brock

    Brock Asha'man

    Besides Barber and Bolden are now students of Atillo. Took me awhile to figure out where I remembered them from, but it finally dawned on me.
  18. Dan Anderson

    Dan Anderson Member

  19. Dan Anderson

    Dan Anderson Member

    Tim, Dieter and I had a very long, extensive talk at one of the dinners. I can't remember if it was Friday or Saturday night. As to Tim being on the floor participating, I was concentrating on the classes I was training in and it wasn't my day to watch him. :)

    Dan Anderson
  20. Datu Dieter

    Datu Dieter Junior Member

    Hi Dan,

    I did not know the above thread.
    I went there and read.
    Not the interesting part is, that, and I quote from the MARPPIO Website:

    "The administrator has disabled public write access"

    Just when it got interesting.
    I wonder why they stopped to allow people to write there and ask questions.....
    So I doubt, that you will get an answer still.



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