Some of you may be familiar with Marc "Animal" MacYoung: ============================================================ Some thoughts on 'Men Hitting Back' (This is part of a response on the "Protest Violence" note.) *** ...I do however want to address something you brought up (albeit by calling me a sexist). Something that is indeed very much a concern to me. That is violence against women... or to be more specific, a trend in "When men hit back." Going back to our shared history and an assumption. That is you've never been hit full force by someone who was Goon Squad size. (For those reading this who didn't work the CA RenFaire circuit, the Goons were a special squad of 'big fellas' to handle certain folks getting 'frisky.') I have been hit by such people. They meant it and it hurt like hell. I use the Goons to point out an idea. It's an idea I'll scale down in a bit, but it's easier to understand by looking at bruisers. Typically, and for all kinds of reasons, men hit other men harder than they do women. As in they hit each other full force, but are prone to hold back when they hit women -- even if she isn't holding back. There is traditionally an abhorrence and negative reaction when a man hits a woman like he would another man. And this is a good thing, because simply stated women, typically being smaller and weaker than men, will take more injury if they attempt male-on-male fighting conditions. Squeal all you want about abuse (come to think of it, that tracks with the outrage of hitting a woman like a man). You can deny there a hesitation about hitting women like men in this culture all you want, but damned near every older male on this planet with experience with violence will back me up on this. And the following statement: For most people, a woman REALLY has to cross a line before a man will hit her like he would another man. A good number of women rely on this. When you look at videos of violence between men and women, you will often see an incredible disparity in the number of blows. (As a a psychologist summed it up, "Women hit more. Men cause more damage.") I often ask a not-so-rhetorical question of: How many times should a woman be allowed to hit a man before he defends himself?) When you watch raw video of women attacking men you'll clearly see this pattern. She attacks more, he ends it... often with one blow. Even that however triggers extreme discomfort in people because... you don't hit girls. (But apparently it's okay for girls to hit boys.) And that brings me to my concern... especially when it comes to protests. More and more women at attacking men and those men are treating them like equals. That's to say they are punching women AS HARD as they would punch another man. Putting it mildly, I am NOT happy with this development. I'm not happy for a wide variety of reasons too complicated to go into here. But I will warn you, you really see this trend among younger men --especially when being attacked by strange women. Strange in the sense of 'unknown to them' (Do a Youtube search on "Men hit back".) Putting this in a protest context, I'm talking masked/unmasked women escalating a confrontation to a physical attack against a Proud Boy, and that guy just hauling off and decking her. This is usually one, very-specific-goal type of hit. It's called various things in different circles, but it can be understood as a "BACK OFF!" or "Get the fuck out of my face hit." It is not a committed attack, but a one-and-done. (Someone intent on throwing you a beating keeps on coming in with more equally powerful hits regardless if you fight back or not.) It is, however, full force -- like he'd hit another man. If she doesn't go down, she's in what I talk about in the Multiple Attacker book as a 'brown out' from having been hit that hard. It is at that time that her fellow protestors step forward and distract/confront the individual who hit her while she gets her marbles back. Once she's gotten over the shock of being hit harder than she's ever been hit in her life -- and largely due to her having numerical support -- she will often reengage in the conflict, but without further physical violence on her part (unless the male who hit her is rendered helpless then she'll jump in on the kick-fest while he's down). Here's the problem, that kind of hitting is equality. You're getting these guys who are treating women the exact same way they'd treat another man. You hit them, and they'll hit you right back. This is a type of equality, I'm not really comfortable with. But you have problems on both sides. One is young women giving themselves permission to physically attack men while, (even if you don't agree with this assessment) relying on men not hitting back and/or other people to save her from an actual beatdown. Two is young men, hitting back with that level of force. Welcome to the unintended consequences of breaking social convention in the name of your cause. When you attack your fellow citizens, they don't have the same restraints, training, equipment and restrictions that law enforcement has. That makes what happens back to you a real crap shoot. I don't like the 'hit women back as hard as you would a man,' but I'm equally unhappy about female protestors engaging in violence against fellow citizens. Here, let me give you five examples of what I'm talking about and you can see these patterns for yourself. You need to watch the upper left hand corner to see her attacking the guy (at 0:16) before he slugs her. The real irony here is how her 'support' starts condemning him for 'hitting a lady' (0:30) after he'd just done an improvised weapon attack (0:20). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvqOXUN0md0&t=14s Here is a break down of "Moldy Locks getting punched" (including her holding a glass bottle in a way to strike with.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWMYmZMiQLk Here's a woman with pepper spray who gets hit and browns out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1lvEybYapo Here are women being equally aggressive (including one with a bat) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HCR1QR4zMU&t=25s This one is mix of both sides being physically violent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmH0D4sdlJ4 So yeah, assholes on both sides, but --and this is assuming you'd actually watch these instead of dismissing them to protect your position -- the issues and behavioral patterns I'm talking about are clearly visible. This is citizen on citizen violence and conflict, and that is not a good thing no matter how much you want to defend it.