Major Differences between . . .

Discussion in 'Kombatan' started by Rich Parsons, Sep 23, 2005.

  1. Boar Man

    Boar Man New Member

    armas

    Thanks for the insight, and the advice. A student/friend of mine and now an instructor under GM Ernesto came back from Austriala after attending GM Ernesto's training camp there a couple of weeks ago. Anyway he too had studied under GM Remy for a short time before his passing, but now he is teaching and training in Kombatan. He asked GM about the difference between Kombatan and Modern anris and he said as well that it's all the same.

    Mark
     
  2. eskrimador

    eskrimador New Member

    I`ve been a student of GM Ernie and Prof. Remy. Based on my experiences the following are my insights on the differences among the two>

    Prof.Remy Presas movements are more on close quarter distance and emphasizes traps and flowing maneuvers. The striking nature is not calibrated from chamber position, the posture and footwork are high and not formalized. This is inherent from Balintawak style and Waly Jay`s small circle jujitsu. The stick drills are all similar using both single, double sticks and interprted thru empty hand techniques.

    GM Ernie movements are ranging from medium to close quarter distance, traps and checking is prominent, the striking nature almost comes from chambered position. Traditional angular strikes are used.The posture and stance are difined, can shift from long/medium to short range. Hand strikings and kicking techniques are important. Kombatan movements is inherent from Japanese martial arts and traditional Filipino stick fighting. Espada y Daga, Bankaw, Daga and Sinawali are in complex system.
     
  3. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    The greater emphasis on close-in fighting from Prof. Presas makes a lot of sense, given the Balintawak background!
     
  4. Datu Dieter

    Datu Dieter Junior Member

    If I might throw my 2 cents in there:

    I hade been training intensively with Ernesto from 83 to beginning of the 90s and since then I have been intensively with Gm Remy until to his death.
    So my experiences are not with Kombatan, becauese I was with Ernesto before he called it Kombatan. Still, from what I have seen recently, very much is still the same oor very similar to the time, when I was with him.

    I think erkrimador was pretty correct.
    What I would add is, that what GM Remy taught had more depth in regards of strategy, counters and so on then Ernesto. But he was not teaching as broad as Ernesto does.
    What I mean with that is, that I found the Tapi-Tapi (compared to Ernestos freestyle) is MUCH more complex, especially through the use of the left hand but not only, and the traps, stick locks, empty hand traps, locks and takedowns etc. were "better" from Remy (my personal opinion. I am not trying to offend anybody). This resembles arnisadors "close quarter" observations. But GM Remy mainly taught single stock, empty hands sometimes some knife and some Sinwali.

    Ernesto uses more diffrerent kind of weapons like more doublestick, Dulo-Dulo, sometimes Bo, Tonfa, Sai and, I think Ernesto put more emphathis on the striking. This is the point with the chambered strikes, that arnisador mentioned.

    So Ernesto had more width in the choice of weapons and distances, that he taught than GM Remy, woh on the other hand had more depth in the techniques he choose to teach. I am not saying, that the one does not have the techniques of the other, it is just what and how they preferred to teach it.

    In general one must say, and this was also a lesson that was learned at the 3rd FMA Festival and the Modern Arnis Camp in the Philippines in July 2006,
    that the Modern Arnis of Ernesto in the 80s was closer to the Modern Arnis of GM Remys Arnis of the 70s, than his own Modern Arnis of the 90s was.

    So if one has learned from both, Remy and Ernesto, you got insights in the old and the new version of Modern Arnis.
    The Kombatan of today might have more aspects of Ernestos own ideas by now.

    So I am quite glad to have learned from both so I got what I call "the best of 2 worlds". And this is the combination we teach today in the DAV in Germany.


    Regards


    Dieter Kn├╝ttel
     
  5. armas

    armas Junior Member

    I agree with all of you. I was just talking about technicalities. Just my opinion. I also don't think I am trying to offend anybody. I just based everything on my research. To me it's all good. It is just the evolution in Modern arnis. I prefer to call it Modern arnis whether it is Kombatan or Remy's style and Ernesto's style. All is right. just they both had different emphasis. All of us who have been exposed to both brothers can understand this. Like at the FMA gathering in the Philippines. you would've seen everybody was united under modern arnis but different flavors. That's all. Just evolve with it. Just my sharing hope nobody gets offended.

    Mark,
    It was great talking to you by accident. Take care and more power.
    Alex
     
  6. animal_stylez

    animal_stylez New Member

    WOW...What a great thread!! I'm new to the board, and new to Kombatan as well (just over a year). I'm glad I found this board to be able to learn from a wealth of people with some great experiences. I'm looking forward to catching up on all the threads.
     
  7. garland

    garland New Member

    With such a small board, I have no shame in reviving a thread from the dead like this. After all, it was still on the first page :)

    Anyways, I have to agree with Dieter. My instructor trained with both Remy and Ernesto (Duane Ranieri), he also took secondary instruction on balintewak - I do not recall from who though.

    I got to hear alot of very interesting stories regarding the two brothers and how things came to be. I will hold them to myself to avoid any potential firestorms. I will say he held both brothers in the utmost regard, irrespective of their faults.

    That being said I can say I've learned bits and pieces of 3 different styles from Duane over the years. He had an excellent way of communicating the various elements of those styles. Back when I first met Duane in 97 he was training mostly balintewak and Modern Arnis. When I met him again in fall of 05, he had switched to Ernesto's system. He had practiced with Remy for several decades and I know he had much personal contact with Ernesto as well. One noteable element was the change from 12 strikes to 6. While initially it made sense personally I believe a composite is necessary in retrospect due to palm position and rib-cage penetration with a bladed weapon.

    One interesting observation he said one night was that he believed Ernesto was the better of the two. Supposedly it had to do with having the more complete art. This was just his personal opinion, something I'm not sure I can agree with. Tapi-Tapi is a brutal game when played out; palit-palit not so much so. Unless, of course, you were doing palit-palit against Duane. He blended the two very well and it was quite potent.

    I personally like to say I know "presas style" martial art. I know a little bit of the Arnis of Remy, a bit of the Arnis of Ernesto, and a bit of the arnis from Duane. It was a fantastic experience and I really recommend anyone studying either of the styles to try the opposite for a short while. It's an eye opening experience.
     
  8. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Thanks for sharing your experience!

    More and more I hear people saying this, and I understand why. I think the differences tend to blind people to the similarities.
     
  9. garland

    garland New Member

    The specific reason I like to say that stems from Duane; from family history regarding the presas which was given to me orally. Given, it's all hearsay, which is why I will not repeat it. Regardless, once someone knows a decent version of the story regarding the presas brothers (preferably one non-biased to either brother), you get a very good idea of why kombaton is 'presas style'. You also can't say Modern Arnis is not presas style.

    The stylistic differences (to my understanding) have to do with the age at which remy left the islands and not knowing the full art because he left too soon. So he supplemented what he knew with balintewak. I find that the full presas art (kombaton) with the stuff remy picked up to be absolutely dominating; I only wish I had the opportunity to study more of it from Duane. The composite art(s) of the three respective understandings provided a very potent art. Oddly I probably benefited more from learning Modern Arnis + Balintewak first before learning kombaton versus kombaton first. I have no logical way of explaining as to why; it just is my own feeling given what I've been taught.
     
  10. armas

    armas Junior Member

    Good for you garland! I gotta agree with you. So many people classifying Remy from Ernesto. Or saying Remy was the teacher of Ernesto. All that talk does not help. I believe that it's a family art of the Presas'. And it is just a different flavor/personality of the three brothers(not to forget Roberto). But all in all it's Presas arnis.
     
  11. garland

    garland New Member

    Interesting that you should say that people believe Remy taught Ernesto. That is the first I've ever heard of this. An interesting piece of secondhand knowledge I received was that the various brothers were effectively 'assigned' to learn different competing styles so they could bring them together as one style. Then of course you get the family fallout and we end up with fractured systems.

    Anyways, another interesting note is that I inquired about learning Dumog from Duane. He said he did not know it but when he talked with ernesto about it that ernesto kind of laughed at it. Specifically because it was something they all did as young children all through growing up - how could anyone not know how to do something so elementary? That kind of thing.

    So perhaps having a foundation of dumog should be more explored by FMA curriculums. Dunno, just a thought.
     
  12. armas

    armas Junior Member

    NO this is only a story. Hear say. People have been saying this forever. I did not make this story up.

    Here's a story for you that came from GM Erning.

    Remy and him would go out and find old manongs who were arnisadors. They would convince the said manong to teach them. And then they would take turns as the dummy. The other would take notes. Then they would gather all the lessons. The brothers would either absorb the lesson or add something to the techniques to make it work better. That's how the Presas art evolved.

    GM Ernesto also said that he inherited his Grandfather's system. Because his Grandfather felt Ernesto was more patient or had a longer fuse. I believe it was Espada y daga, sungkiti and Palis palis.
     
  13. garland

    garland New Member

    My story or yours? Your statement confused me. I realize mine is hearsay; it's secondhand knowledge -ie. someone told me the story (Duane).

    Right. I heard something similiar. Are you saying this is hearsay and/or a lie? Not trying to be confrontational here, just was confused by your initial statement.
     
  14. armas

    armas Junior Member

    Not being confrontational too man. You see all that I am saying is some people say that Ernesto learned from Remy. Get it. The latter story is not hearsay. As it says, it is a story directly from Ernesto himself. I am not an authority. Only sharing my two cents. Hope this ends here.
     
  15. garland

    garland New Member

    Yeah that's fine, I wasn't sure if we were saying the same thing or disagreeing. Seems we were saying the same thing. Tis all good ;)
     

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