Discussion in 'JKD-Kali' started by JPR, Nov 17, 2005.
Ok, what type of JKD-Kali do you do?
I train in Paul Vunak's style, but I'm away this year and am studying under a teacher who is in Dan Inosanto's style now.
I am just curious what stye you are referring to. Aside from Paul's PFS curriculum or his RAT program, did he evolve his Kali methods specifically to formulate something other than Inosanto Blend Kali which he learned from Dan Inosanto?
I'm a student, not an instructor, but I can tell you what I see. I study under one of Paul Vunak's senior people. His JKD style is is the PFS curriculum which includes the RAT program. There is Kali in it, but as far as weapons go it's very basic--simple block-check, sumbrada, a couple of disarms built into certain routines, a few patterns (e.g. amora) and sinawalis, several stick grappling techniques (possibly influence by my instructor's BJJ background?), plus some knife work that's mostly knife-on-knife dueing. However, in empty-hands there's a lot of dumog and many drills practiced out of hubbud.
My teacher is (was?) certified by Guro Dan, so I suppose Inosanto Kali is as good a term as any other. (I hate the term "Inosanto Blend." Sounds like coffee.)
In stylistic terms, I'm not really sure how to chalk all that up. I came from a Doce Pares background prior to Inosanto Kali. I feel like the latter did more knife emphasis. And that the empty hand was informed by a lot of the other influences in the JKD camp (muay thai, boxing, jun fan, etc.)
I can run off a few of the specific things that I did in IK that I hadn't done in DP though. IK was my first introduction to sembrada drills. In DP, we did a couple of abbreviated equivalents, which we called tapi ("tapi" being one of the most meaninglessly generic terms in all of FMA). Now that I'm training with a Modern Arnis group, of course, tapi refers to another drill entirely. And even within my DP curriculum, tapi tapi refered to another concept again.
IK was also my first introduction to palisut, the hooking and passing maneuver done with a dagger in lupa (earth) or inverted grip. I'm guessing that "palisut" is the same root word as "palis palis" in which you hook and pass the opponent's stick with yours. (I was introduced to that particular concept by someone with seminar experience from Lameco.)
The pangamot we drilled used a lot of sensitivity drills, like hubud, which didn't get much coverage in my DP classes. And was totally new to the MA group I work with now.
It was interesting to read that comparison. You're right that hubbud doesn't appear in Modern Arnis, although one sees it almost everywhere else it seems! You can look at de cadena block-check-counter (i.e. trapping hands) as a sort of version of hubbud (backwards, sort of).
Wow. My last post was tiny. Sorry about that.
De cadena? I'm not sure I know that one. I know roughly what it means. "Chained" (as in sequence) if my Spanish isn't too rusty. But this specific use of the term, I'm not sure. Is that an MA term? I haven't heard my current guro use it.
The only context I've heard the term hubud in was Inosanto kali. But that doesn't mean much. My experience is DP, IK, MA, and one seminar in a style the teacher called De Cuerdas, but that's another name that seems to mean something different to absolutely everyone. Still not clear on whether that's an association with Anciong Bacon or someone else.
I digress. A lot of the Sayoc knife transition drills remind me of hubud as well, based on what I've seen online. (I haven't trained in Sayoc personally.)
Yes, chaining just means turning it in to a drill by repeating it. So, if you block-check-counter, and the other person uses a block-check-counter against your counter, then you use a block-check-counter against his counter, etc., you've made a chaining of technique. So, hubbud can be viewed as 4 counts chained together.
Ah. Gotcha. I would have called that a "contrada" or "counter for counter" drill.
But then, I'm not certain I'm using that term properly either.
If I recall the sensitivity/energy drill popularized by the JKD community was Hubud(to untie)-Lubud(to blend). It's main emphasis was similar to that of Chi Sao. Wherein, Hagad-Hubud (to strike & counter) would be more in tune to Contrada.
Although the word "decuerdas" literally translates to chord, we must remember that a lot of FMA terminology is not used in its literal translation but used to denote a motion, pattern etc. The word chord can be defined as harmony or the line between 2 points of a curve. We refer to decuerdas as whinding or rebounding which would represent that curve.
Stuart, I recall you mentioned this Decuerdas instructor on another forum. I met Arthur Gonzalez in California. He is a senior player in GM Gilbert Tenio's Decuerdas system. I don't think there is an association to the late GM Bacon of Balintawak.
Haven't heard that term before. Hagad-hubud. Would you describe the sumbrada drill as hagad-hubud then? Thanks.
Hey John. I did yeah. Actually I mentioned two different "DeCuerdas" teachers (and I don't think the two are in any way related). Casting my mind back, it occurs to me that although that seminar teacher wrote the style "de cuerdas" he pronounced it "de cortas." The Spanish word "cortar" means "to cut" so I thought perhaps that was the meaning of the style name. It certainly seemed blade oriented at the time (based largely on the deemphasis on getting your empty hand involved).
The new DeCuerdas people (who I'm really going to have to check out, since the Modern Arnis club seems to be on hiatus) are Sirs Walter and Wesley Cristosomo. I can't honestly remember whether they traced what they do back to Anciong Bacon or no.
One of these days, by the way, I'm going to have to try and pay you a visit. I'm relatively close to your school. In fact, most of my training took place up the street from you in Pasadena.
Hagad-Hubud is used in some styles as is Sanga at Patama which refers to striking and defending. The sumbrada drills I have seen in JKD and similar to Doce Pares was coined sumbrada because the focus of development WAS the sumbada (roof) block.
If you were to look at the 3-count drill where your partner thrusts, you wing block and counter high, he uses a sumbrada (w/palm up) counters back, you use sumbrada (w/palm down) and start the drill all over with your own thrust...you will notice the structure is rooted for the sumbrada block. Some styles refer to either side as sumbrada because it forms a roof. In KI, we refer to the palm up position as as Pluma or pen block.
I have not heard of these instructors but do you know if they have affiliation to Yaw-Yan. The title "Sir" is commonly used between YY players. Are they Filipino?
I don't have a school. I teach out of one though. You are always welcome to say hello. I have a small but dedicated group that trains 3X a week. We have gone to Bobby & Apolo's in Pasadena several times to play against them.
All the best!
Aha! Makes sense.
Right you are. My Modern Arnis guro also uses the term pluma for the palm-up sumbrada. But still calls the overall drill sumbrada.
They are Filipino, but I'm pretty sure they have no affiliation with Yaw Yan. Their group is known as the Knights of Something or other. Gimme a minute. In any event, that's why the "sir" title.
Here it is: http://www.decuerdas.8k.com/
I hear ya my friend. I don't have one either. Haven't trained in weeks for one reason or another. Not the least of which is that it's gotten a bit chilly to be practicing in the park.
I practiced taekwondo with Bobby and Apolo. But they hadn't really gotten into FMA back then. At least, not as far as I knew. I trained with the Patalinghugs for about 6 years though.
Many thanks for the link Stuart. Yes, I have visited that site before but did not realize there were instructors locally let alone Maryland. I am in Montgomery Cty. almost every weekend with in-laws. I may reach out to pay my respect.
How long ago did you do TKD with Apolo? From what I recall Bobby was in charge of FMA and has been doing it for at 6-10 years while Apolo is a fairly newcomer although he had previous training. Ah, so you trained Doce Pares with Carlos at Kick Connection. I saw him this past summer at the Filipino Independence celebration in Towson. Back to back with Apolos crew for their demos. I hope to demo next year.
All the best!
I've been meaning to get round there myself. Perhaps I'll see you over there sometime. Keep in touch if you like and maybe we can arrange something.
Oh man. Um... I started taekwondo at Kim's Karate when I was about 13 years old. That would have been circa 1984. Apolo was a teacher there. Bobby too. They weren't regular teachers in my school. But I'd see them periodically. I left Kim's in 1989 and began training with Carlos, Leo, and company at the Kick Connection. I joined that school pretty much the moment it opened.
That would be excellent. I need to make it out that way sometime soon. Pay a visit. It's been too long. Though there's a guy from Kick Connection who lives a couple of blocks from where we train in Northern VA. So he and a bloke I used to train with (his brother in law as it turns out) visited our group recently. It was a nice reminder.
All the best!
My JKD Kali background is through Tim Mousel (Inosanto-certified) in Houston Texas[http://defend.net].
My JKD & Inosanto Kali Lineage is:
Dan Inosanto -> Udo Mueller -> Me (JKD & Kali)
Dan Inosanto -> Udo Müller -> Stefan Bruening -> Me (Only Kali)
Dan Inosanto -> Ralf Beckmann -> Me (JKD & Kali)
Dan Inosanto -> Lars Helms -> Me (JKD & Kali)
I was also fortunate to so far meet Sifu/Guro Dan Inosantoand Guro Rick Faye at Seminars here in Germany...
Separate names with a comma.