Limb Destructions- PP

Discussion in 'General' started by Kailat, May 27, 2008.

  1. Kailat


    For those of you who are an older group and trained w/ George Dillman, or the DKI group. Or are familiar with Evan Pantazi and the KI (kyusho International) group.

    I recently had a conversation on a forum w/ Mr. Pantazi, who we had a conversation on behalf of FMA limb destructions and pressure point attacks. I know we don't spend endless hours studying merdians and yin-yang principles and the 5 elements theory etc...

    at any rate how many practice in depth these systems or do you just like many of us just, know where the major points are and attack those.

    For example: elbow smashes to the hand, or use elbow to smash points in the bicep, and or the forearm.. Useing knees to hit to the outter thigh area ie, common peroneal. Causing nerve damage and quickly immobolizing your opponents movements.

    this was Mr. Pantazi respone: " If you are damaging the nerves then you are not practicing intellegently.

    Just an opinion, formulated over two decades of arm point manipulation (and or Destructions) with no damage. That includes the thousands of KI members as well."

    Whats our take as FMA and any feedback on this? Just curious how those who do study PP in fighting do them
  2. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    No disrespect to those who look for or train in pressure points etc. but in my experiences I have found when under fire that it is extremely difficult to target, locate, and work these types of attacks. No one is simply going to leave their appendage out their for another to work it over. I am a firm believer in simply hitting what is ever in front of me, kicking what is there, smashing something close by, choking the hell out of what ever I can grab. Do I tell myself this is this or this is that? NO, I am trying to kick the attackers ass by any and all means necessary, and when in combat mode I simply GO. I am a firm believer in taking what is given but a gift in the midst of conflict shouldn't be analyzed just destroyed. My .02 cents.
  3. geezer

    geezer Member

    Your 2 cents is money in the bank. In a "real situation" K.I.S.S. --And, not to derail this thread, but I haven't heard much about George Dilman and his claims of having a "Death Touch" in ages. I'd heard that he was pretty well discredited. Is he still around?
  4. Kailat


    " And, not to derail this thread, but I haven't heard much about George Dilman and his claims of having a "Death Touch" in ages. I'd heard that he was pretty well discredited. Is he still around? "

    I believe Dillman is still out there. He is trying to re-invent himself w/ this "NO-TOUCH" KO stuff. I just read in the recent either Black Belt, or Inside Kung Fu, about Dillman. I don't know much about what he's been doing, but im certain he is stil out there.

    As for the PP debate here, I have always been fascinated in the PP arts. Not so much of the ability to KO someone w/ PP. But just for the healing aspects of it. I firmly believe as PG Mike pointed out, that when you are out there to take someone out, its all about hitting and hitting hard. You don't have the time to be accurate and attack these points with the mere " hopeful" intent to deliver a KO blow. When you go at it, you go at it with all you have!

    I know from training aspect the FMA guntings, scissors strikes, elbow-knee strikes and limb destructions are as effective as they are trained. I've used many strikes in subdoing an inmate while working in Corrections and Police field. Knee strikes to the common peroneal outter thigh is a very useful and convenient technique. It being a pp or nerve strike I know its a powerful technique that serves a means to an end. it may not KO someone but it will knock em down.. if nailed just right.. I don't want to start a flame war about PP and put down those systems either in fact I enjoy studying them.
  5. corwin137

    corwin137 Slayer of knuckledraggers

    In the shadow of PG Michael's sunlight as I often am...

    Unless accidental, I've found that "nerve hits" (grabs/presses in the context I'm describing...) proper of any type are only possible when the gap has already been bridged and there's some sort of clinch contact. Even then, if there's real resistance, am not thinking about doing so specifically.

    What I'm getting at I think is that most of these skills (destructions) in my experience are gross, rather than fine motor, which I'd argue are required for bona-fide nerve hits.
  6. geezer

    geezer Member

    Reminds me of something I heard or read once...probably in a Terry Pratchett novel... "Sure pressure points work. Almost any point will do, the trick is having enough pressure..." --like a ton of bricks or a Mack truck, for example!
  7. Kailat


    There's no doubt that pressure point techniques are detramental to our training. In fact I can see using them in a real situation and have. However, they are considered a "humane" way of controling a subject.

    There is no problem with studing and undersanding these points. I even would go as far as dabbling into the dimsueh-kyusho arts and take it to that level. But without the understanding that pressure points are as you stated gross motor skillls. Also like you mentioned PP can only come from a stand up grapple or clinch type position and even when or once your hit the ground. SPLEEN 21 point is a great point to make contact w/ once you hit the ground especially if you find yourself on the Gaurd postion. I've used this once and it was successful however, in training i've used it and it didn't work.. SO i think its up to the opponent.

    My main reason why I bring this up the whole point of the conversation was "WHO USES" PP in training. I felt that I was being placed in a rather place of sarcasim for using guntings and nerve / limb destructions within the FMA... Mr. Pantazi I don't doubt his abilities as i've never met the gentleman. But in all the conversations i've felt a little animostiy towards FMA from him.. perhpas im reading too deep into it.

    Nonetheless, I feel focusing on striking on nothing but PP could and will get you hurt.... But in the end once you find the openeing to use the PP by all means "GO FOR IT" if thats what the situation calls for.
  8. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I read Chris Thomas' article in Black Belt about the no-touch KOs and their alleged scientific evidence for it. I am at a loss for words.

    Mr. Dillman has some good stuff but it's now hidden by a lot of...questionable material. I stick with the basics as in Kailat's first post: Elbow to the bicep, knee to the outer thigh, etc. Simple to do, big enough to hit, proven to work.
  9. Tom G

    Tom G New Member

    The Kyusho International curriculum under Pantazi is not designed to teach you another fighting system. It teaches you how to "activate" the points that you are already attacking in your own martial art.
    I run a study group under Kyusho International. We go over how the points are best struck, do a basic drill, then see how they fit into one of your own techniques.
    KO's are not emphasized. I consider them a bonus. We go for the pain and body reaction. You don't rely on the one hit and he's down mentality. When people are moving you are not always going to hit the points just right. You keep hitting as many points as you need to until your attacker is where you need him to be. Most likely you are already in the area of the points with what you are doing now. A slight adjustment will make a difference. I have a few FMA guys that just started with me and they feel it has made a difference in their striking.
  10. Tom G

    Tom G New Member

    I don't think Mr. Pantazi has any animosity towards FMA.
    I think he might have studies some. I was just at a Kyusho instructor conference and while doing some drills some FMA concepts were mentioned. The people are from many different styles and are very open minded.

    As far as Dillman. He deserves the credit for "rediscovering" Kyusho.
    Never met him, just some videos. It seems he might be losing it a bit. Just my opinion.
  11. Kailat



    Thank you for clarifying that bit of information for us. As I've stated I greatfully enjoy the study of PP. It's not to the extent of understanding the "magical death touch" or anything like that. I think the studyof the points are very detramental to martial arts in destruction and healing as a process.

    I was unsure what Mr. Pantazi's stand was on the FMA. I know how many are side tracked on certain stuff and only like their chosen path. I for one am a VERY OPEN minded martial arts and explore the truth in all aspects as long as its approachable and realistic in combat. If it has a flakey side (No TOUCH KO) then I usually don't waste my time with it or any of the magical, mystical, dark side of the arts that take more energy to explore and understand than need be.

    I have met George Dillman and have a couple of times. It was how I got interested in the study of PP in the first place. I found him to be very inteligent individual. BUT as you said I think he's lost it!

    have a good day sir
  12. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    A lot of George Dillman's people studied some Modern Arnis (and Small Circle Jujutsu) during the era of the "Triple Threat" seminars.
  13. Kailat


    Yes, I first met Master Dillman at one of Indy's big events featured by Master Will Higgenbotham, where Master Wally Jay, Prof Presas and Mstr Dillman were all a part of. thats been many years back. But I followed the DKI structure while I studied Karate.
  14. Tom G

    Tom G New Member

    Being open minded is so important for an individuals growth. I am amazed at how many people look at me sideways when I say my main system is a Korean art. Forget when I mention pressure points!
    Although the "no touch KO" interests me, I am not sure how it fits into combat yet. There are plenty of other areas to put my energy and limited time into.
  15. Kailat


    Tom, I agree with you.. Im one that always preach OPEN MINDNESS, but i'll also reserve my opinionon the NO TOUCH KO...

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