LEOs and MMA.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by arnisador, May 25, 2008.

  1. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Beat Cops

    [FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]Why the Police Are Becoming
    Some of the World's Toughest Fighters

    A different take on this article:
    Sean Gannon to Re-Emerge From Obscurity?

  2. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    MMA is everywhere it seems...now the lead story at Yahoo!'s front page:
    MMA myths debunked again

  3. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    As a cop who practices the filipino and chinese martial arts, I have this to say.. The MMA is about as worthless as tits on a boar when it comes to practicality for this occupation.. To go to the ground with a perp is to say that you let him get too close when you are questioning him.. If you let him get in with in your reactionary gap, you deserve to get your asses handed to you.. The only time that you should let anyone inside your reactionary gap is when you have back up and you are cuffing the individual.. Some precincts utilize the programs that are set up by the MMA practitioners because of the hype they see on the tube.. Not all fights or situations are one on one.. For the most part, if the perp gets inside of your reactionary gap and is moving on you, you should be on the move to get control of the situation by the most expeditious means possible.. That is why they issue batons and OC spray to fight these kinds of situations, but to go toe to toe with a perp is just asking for a smack down on your behalf..

    I practice the arts that I do for the ability to go home and have supper with my family, and to let some individual who is going to be cuffed ruin that for me is to say that I screwed the pooch on how I handled the situation.. The filipino arts cover the applications of grappling with the buno and dumog, all it takes is a little exploration with in your own system to understand the choking points on the body to set the triangles that make up the major parts of the skeletal and muscular systems spinning to your benefit..

    Nuff said
    Last edited: May 31, 2008
  4. Shonin

    Shonin New Member

    I fear this thread has the potential to become a huged shouting match and I don't want to get involved in that. But as a trainer at a large Police Academy I also see the fascination with MMA. (The FBI for years has, unfortunately IMHO used ground work as the major component of their DT training.) While I think that MMA give a huge return return on investment when developing fitness (with a high degree of safety - recruits, like anyone else will sue when they get injured), I question the value of ground work for a LEO.

    Most of the officers who lose ther weapons lose them on the ground, and while it begs the question to say they wouldn't have lost them in the first place if they were MMA trained, going to the ground with someone makes weapon retention very difficult.

    Also, while the fitness potential of training in the MMA cannot be denied, once out of the academy most cops have very little time. They are simply very busy people and the majority of them find it hard to train. Pursuing FMA is generally easier than pursuing MMA, especially as an officer ages.

    I also agree with Silat1's comment that for general LEO training the FMA are very appropriate. A lot of Defensive Tactics already is watered down FMA anyway.

    And of course branding (the name) is always going to be an issue -- I can really see some public perception problems if an academy was to begin teaching an art whose names means "to cut up into small pieces in close". (LOL). Wouldn't THAT be something in the headlines.
  5. Kailat


    Also as someone who works in this profession, I'd like to add that I know for our area here, only 1 out of every 10 officers will even train extensively outside of the dept. When I was teaching DT's it was a simple game for some of the officers. They spent the 2-4 hours of lessons goofing off. It made it hard for me and the other instructors to have a serious lesson. Just got word from one of my students who just ventured into the DT's field, just told me the last two weeks he's been assiting w/ our dept and it was a joke.. I gave up on teaching Dt's about a year or 2 ago here. It was a worthless waste of time. Although I got paid, it wasn't worth the headaches as I take this training and teaching seriously and to have a bunch of clowns who think they are bad (u know) joke and kid around, I just said forget it.

    But as I seen the rise of this MMA I figured maybe it will help those who are serious at least do some form of training. I'll stick to what I do however. As was stated, I believe your right.. DT's is watered down FMA But you have a four hour class once every 6 to 12 weeks to teach a bunch of know it alls some form of skills.. All the PPCT course is, pressure points, simple locks (which i've seen majority of taught wrong) and a couple take downs (which again i've seen taught wrong as well).. It makes me wonder where some of these DT's instructors come from...

    I'll never forget one class I was teachng on a straight arm bar take down.. I made it so obvious that the previous instructor taught it completly wrong, I shared a simple and direct way to take even the largest of individual down w/ hardly no strength what so ever.. U see these little cops trying to push the elbow or arm of brutus to the floor and the big guy stand there, "you gonna take me down or what".. I showed my version and POOF he went down w/ ease...I shared that and then the little man was like WOW how easy is that? I figured at least I got one technique accross.. the oldschool Karate mentality has taken over the Police Force... HARD WORKS BETTEr when in fact HARD IS JUST THAT "HARD" I say work smarter not harder...LOL
  6. DeadguY

    DeadguY New Member

    I watch the UFC and other MMA orgs frequently and there are quite a few LEOs and Correctional Officers in the Sport. I don't think either LEOs or COs should use MMA as a form of self defense because it's a weaponless art, grappling for the most part isn't an effective form of self defense especially with more than one attacker.

    I've heard one of the UFC LEOs (apologies I can't recall his name) say that he originally just trained MMA for health reasons. I'd trained at an MMA gym and there is a heavy emphasis on endurance, so I could totally see anyone taking classes just for the sake of losing weight or getting fit. That's why I ended up going to their gym, I needed to lose pounds for my wedding and in a few months I'd lost quite a bit of weight.
  7. equilibrium

    equilibrium Member

    MMA evolving for sports

    Some people talk about MMA as some sort of scientific bringing together of all the best of all the arts for all the ranges. This is crap. MMA is evolving for the purpose of sport, so it will be good for sport with the rules as they make them and therefore not a good choice for LEO.

    Even one of Gracies said they werent into MMA so much anymore since it was becoming dominated not by guys who could fight really well necessarily, but by tough guys who knew how to use the rules to win.

    I am a private citizen and I would also like to say that whatever is evolving for LEOs isnt necessarily best for the private citizen nor the the soldier nor for anyone else. I agree that lots of good LEO techniques are watered down FMA which makes sense since lots of times the LEO needs to control the subject and/or conform to department rules on what you can and cannot do in specific situations. So it would be a subset of techniques and some specific techiniques thrown in specificially for the LEO. I have seen some techniques in pekiti tirsia that are taught to the police that are specific to handcuffing them, etc.
  8. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Ultimate Fighting Recruits Military to Its Ranks

    See also:
    For Soldiers, a Fringe Fighting Sport Finds Mainstream Appeal
  9. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I just watched a documentary on HBO called The Recruiter. It's about an army recruiter who is especially good at recruiting, and follows some of his recruits through basic training. I was surprised to see nontrivial BJJ in basic training (men and women). They started from the knees and both matches they showed ended with the classic arm bar from the mount (eh, which I find an iffy technique outside of sport--rolling on your own back like that).

    One recruits is selected for Special Forces training, but they don't show much of it. He does graduate though.

    Interesting documentary.
  10. Shaun

    Shaun New Member

    All really valid points.In the UK,most LEOs do not carry firearms.
    Speaking from a personal perspective,when it does 'kick off',there is usually more than one perpetrator and sometimes I have to deal with the situation on my own,at least initially until my colleagues arrive - I try at all costs to avoid going to the ground.
    On my beat,I often have to deal with groups of youths who are older teens,so they are not really kids,but young adults.There is a core of youths on my patch,who would not hesitate to put the boot in on an officer if he/she were on the ground.
    Staying on ones feet is important when facing multiple aggressors,not least because it is easier to retain authority when standing.
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2008
  11. chubbybutdangerous

    chubbybutdangerous CHUBBY MEMBER

    As a former Marine and current civilian, I also have an opinion on mma and any "uniformed"/tactical occupation. I work out/instruct at an mma gym. But for me, "mma" means just that, mixed martial arts. Which can be a good thing (cross training and the like). But from what I've experience at the gym I go to, (which has 'jitsu, Muy Thai, etc.) there is definitely a difference between the "mma guys" and everyone else. The best fighters/tacticians are the ones who have a good base in a traditional art (I consider both brazilian and japanese 'jitsu traditional arts. We find it somewhat amusing when we get "cage fighters" and "street fighters" who want to work out there. But even at an mma academy, people are starting to realize how "real world" fma really is, especially when they start seeing the knife work. I like to assume a few things with a potential adversary:
    #1 - He has a weapon
    #2 - He's got friends nearby
    #3 - He's got some good skills
    #4 - I'm gonna have to get as mean, vicious and dirty as I can

    FMA covers me on all of this IMHO, better than "mma".
    The Chubby One​
  12. Shaun

    Shaun New Member

    Yeah,my biggest concern is the blade,especially when I know some of the people I have had dealings with, have carried them in the past.
    Cross training is great.I really enjoy it and have benefited from it.
    I believe grappling skills are of essential (knowing how to get out of choke holds,headlocks,or being lifted off the ground bodily by a weight lifter,etc.),but not as necessary as learning how to deal with weapons IMHO.
    It is a question of time and priorities.
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2008

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