Discussion in 'General' started by Ron Kosakowski, Feb 20, 2009.
After spending time looking for Kuntao videos on your site, all I found was a JKD Kali/JiuJitsu blend video labeled as Kuntao.
Is that the Kuntao the Maranao and Magui "kuntaoist" approved?
Who did GM Rossi learn Kuntao from during the war?
Before this escalates into a flame war, I want to put a stop to it before it gets to that point.. This is not what I wanted for responses to this thread.. You have to remember than Kuntao is just an identifier to a specific combatives system/s that I have been able to train with over my past experiences in the Philippines and Taiwan.. Kuntao is nothing more than an identifier which has chinese, indonesian and filipino influences in it.. In some dialects of China, Kuntao is the same as Chuan fa which literally translates to fist way, just as kenpo karate translates into law of the fist.. In my research of Kuntao, it has been pointed out that Kuntao is also an old name for generalizing the older Chinese forms of martial arts.. According to Draeger in his "Weapons and fighting arts of the Indonesian archipelago", There are two general cateories of Kuntao, one from Shantung (northern) and another from Fukien (southern), These systems vary quite a lot due to the population that lives in these regions of China.. It has been my privilege to be able to train in different variations of Kuntao over the last 30 plus years, yet I am still learning.. I am not an expert and although I have been fortunate to train with some very skilled and experienced practitioners, I am not a "reliable" subject expert on another individual's teacher or system that they have been able to train with under another a different kuntao instructor.. As I have put it out so many times in the past, Kuntao is a very individualistic combatives system, and there are more variations of it as they are as many different snow flakes or grains of sand, no two are a like as they are personal interpetitions of what the individual chose to focus on..
you did not want this to turn into a flame war,and yet you write as if you speak on behalf of kuntao practicioners as an "elder" of kuntao.
first you say you can be considered an "elder" of kuntao- yet now you write that you are not an expert nor a reliable subject expert- but your previous sentences seek to claim otherwise by providing explanations and definitions on the history, origins and focus of kuntao.
do you speak on behalf of practicioners of kuntao/kuntau/kuntaw with mindanao/sulu origins?
or are you speaking on behalf of philippine kungfu/karate later renamed kuntaw?
have you trained in kuntao/kuntao/kuntaw with mindanao/sulu origin?
i seem to notice that the references in your research you have made in regard to your definitions of kuntao/kuntau/kuntaw seem to come from either indonesian or chinese origins. i do not see any reference from the philippines and especially mindanao/sulu in your post.
you state that you have studied and trained in kuntao in the philippines- will you clarify if that is of the philippine kungfu/karate-lanada/maharlika lineage or/and if that includes mindanao/sulu training so that your statement can be clarified on who's kuntao you are speaking of in regards to your statements.
As I originally posted, I am interested in hearing if other FMA practicioners work on knife throwing.
And if so what might your training methods be?
You have the wrong poster, Bill/Silat1 didn't say any such thing. Read the thread again.
I wrote that I could be considered an "elder" of Kuntao, as I was teaching Kuntao/Kuntaw in the states in 1975, even before a lot of the individuals who are teaching it now were even thinking about training in it.. I was affiliated with the Maharlika Kuntaw group for more than 20 yrs, but when I started training in it, we were called Maharlika Kuntaw Kungfu, which then was a mixture of the chinese, indonesian and filipino combatives.. When I went back to the Philippines in the late 70s, the Karate type of forms were being taught and the whole system had changed to be more of a karate system.. I learned the system that had been revamped, yet coming from a Chinese Kuntao background that I had trained in Taiwan with, I stayed with the more fluid system as I was originally taught.. Since I was with the Lanada Kuntaw group for so many years and I left due to personal disagreements and other circumstances that I won't go into here..
I stayed with the Chinese influences due to personal preferences, yet I still teach the Filipino eskrima arts that I have trained in and achieved instructor quals.. They were out of the Kuntaw/Kuntao realm as that is the way I chose to develop my program for my specific clientel as I don't teach commercially and most of my students are referred to me by people who have known me for years..
I don't speak for any of the Kuntaw groups out of mindanao or sulu regions as my training within Kuntao has been more of a personal preference for the chinese influences, but as a recognized Tulisan or renegade instructor of the old Maharlika Kuntaw system, I speak from my personal experiences with this system.
I'm sure that none of us want that.
thank you very much for generous and honest answer,
i am kindly requesting you clarify one last point
do you have any training in the kuntao/kuntau/kuntaw arts of mindanao or sulu? and if so please clarify since you do not state one way or another.
I have not trained with any of the instructors of Mindanao or Sulu to be perfectly straight.. I have not trained with the Tausug or Maranao groups of that region and although at one point I was told that my old alliance with the Maharlika Kuntaw Kungfu was from the Tausugs, I have never stated (to the best of my knowledge) that I was teaching anything even remotely associated with the tribes of the region and if I did, I was quick to correct the statement once I found out the truth... Most of my Kuntao/Kuntaw training has been with the Chinese systems and the systems that are called Kuntaw in the central Luzon area, but as a result of the findings of my research within my former association with the system mentioned above, I chose to stay with the blade and stick arts of the Philippines and who do not use any form of Kuntaw spelling in their system.. I hope to get some exposure to the Kuntaw and silat systems of the Mindanao region some day, but due to the nature of my job, my travels to the southern regions of the Philippines are limited due to restrictions by the powers to be that are in charge.. The last time I was in Mindanao was in the late 70s while on a medcap mission with the USAF along with the AFP where we were called in to take care of a cholera outbreak as part of our joint operations.. I did have the chance to go to Cagayan De Oro a couple of times in support of the military base we had there at one time and also helped treat the citizens of the local area with the medcap teams that we had assigned
With all due respect, I have to say that you do not know anything about JKD or Jiu jitsu. Nor do you know anything about Kuntao obviously. I have to say that your comments on this cannot be accepted. If you think that this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcwKu_UzwQk or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltxzNkYJ47U looks like JKD, Kali or Jiu jitsu...how can I accept your opinion here?
However, this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hukqFbyWJQE was put up by ESPY-TV...it was a seminar I did back in 1995 blending all the different styles I teach together. I used to sometimes teach a blend of styles...I don't do that anymore. Unless that is the only video you saw?
Kuntao translates to Fisy Way in Chinese and Indonesia. In the Philippines it translates as "to be a man" by the elders of Kuntao from the Marinao tribes.
I can see why there can be controvercy over me having Kuntao. My teacher had learned his in Mindanao going back after WW2. He first learned an abridged version of it during the war, then went to complete his learning after obviously taking a liking to what he had learned in the abridged format. I am the only one that ever learned the whole system Joe Rossi had.
Another part I take in this is what GT Leo Gaje had done for me. I am writing a book on Kuntao so i wanted to explore more about Kuntao and gain some contacts to continue my own education and complete the book. GT Leo risked his life to bring me where he brought me to accomplish this. We had a few close calls where we almost got killed to do this. By the way, he wrote a big blog on his web site on this exact subject in case you are in doubt. Anyway, I remember wondering if I was ever going to see my kids again. I am adventurous but that area is dangerous and worse now a days that it was 5 years ago. On the other hand, it was worth it. i got some good contacts there which I remain in contact with. I got to see a similar but different version of Kuntao.
Right now, there are some elders helping me write the history of Kuntao. There is a history out there that is not accurate and these people are adament about straightening that out. So am I...you will have to wait for the book to be published to see what it is.
Bill...you say you are not an expert as a reliable sourse...I hear you there...I am not either. If it were not for me taking these chances and meeting these people, I would have to rely on what is on the web for my information. Kuntao info is always kept very secretive. My teacher was like that...greedy with his style...they all are. I am also. I look for loyalty and I do not teach just anyone who walks in the door. If they are brawler types, I send them to the JKD/Grappling classes.
I am not used to my Kuntao being questioned. Though, I welcome it because I understand. Being a caucasion with such a sophisticated style IS unusual.
I have learned my fair share of JKD to know that what you are showing in your videos is a blend of some Jun Fan/Serak entries with Mande Muda ground work and some JiuJitsu/Aikido joint locks and throws. There's even some Savate and Muay Thai kicks thrown in.
What you lack in your skill demonstrated on your videos is the essence of Kuntao. Without the essence, the ancestors are not respected and Kuntao turns into mush.
I am not questioning your JKD/Kali skill, just your transference of what our forefathers struggled so hard to keep alive, to our future generations to pass on to their students.
I can't wait for the book to come out. I will keep silent on the subject until I finish reading the book.
Well, I go not know Aikido at all, though I do BJJ and other ground grappling. I also do not know Savate though I did a class at the Inosanto Academy once with Salem Assli back in 89 or 90. The joint locking you see that looks like Aikido to you is pretty much universal. The ground work in my Kuntao is not Mande Muda...it consists of eye and hair grabbing, joint locking, superficial nerve grabbing...it is a complete system covering all ranges. Is that what makes you think it is JKD? A true ancient system will cover all ranges yet be in-fighting oriented due to the fact that one on one or multi man attacks will inevidably end up in the clench...or a clench of some sort.
Anyway, I don't know what you saw that was Kuntao before. I saw some very "Karate" looking Kuntao on the web and no, thats not what I do. My Kuntao has been accepted by the elders in the Philippines. If it is hard to beieve, then ask Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje if it was. I think the elders know what they are looking at when I had to demonstrate my style. So I am not to worried about what the opinions here are.
Like I said before, I understand the controvercy...Real Filipino Kuntao is not easy to find...even in the Philippines.
i would definitely like to know in what particular dialect "kuntao" means "to be a man"- if you are saying that is the definition in the MARANAO dialect- that can easily be confirmed. ( if you have been accepted by the maranao "elders" then why do you continue to misspell their tribal name?- that would be considered disrespect )
i will not bring your teacher Joe Rossi or his history into this out of respect for the departed.
i have been to many parts of mindanao and i know quite a few members on this very forum who currently live and love mindanao- they do not seem to be risking their lives. why are trying to make it seem the lands of mindanao are such frightening places? why should you have even been afraid when you were accompanied and chauffered by members of the armed forces of the philippines? please dont try to argue with me about mindanao and its surrounding areas when you were only there for a few days with armed guards and many of us VACATION there with friends family and loved ones and even train for months at a time. do you not realize that by making it sound like you went to such a "DANGEROUS" place you are also insulting the land and people of the "council elders" that you claim connection to?
i think they would be hurt by your very comments.
speaking of the "council of grand kuntaoists" of the "marinao" tribe- why didnt they tell you the hilt on your kampilan was backwards before you changed it recently?
arent they a little hurt that you choose to have your "moro" blades made by people who are not followers of islam or even located in mother mindanao?
please think about what i have wrote and the potential damage you can cause to the sons and daughters of mindanao-you go there a few days for research- to many of us, its our home
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