Knife Crime in the U.K.

Discussion in 'FMA in the News' started by arnisador, Jan 16, 2006.

  1. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    The FMA although growing in the UK is still a tight community, everyone in it knows everyone, so when something bad happens that dents the image we can all suffer simply because we all know each other. And with the British Press the way it is we tend to get tarred with the same Brush.

    But the Police do know of the BCKEAI and the good reputation it has, hence they contacted me and the Council raising their concerns about the Seminar I am talking about.

    We have quite a few LEO's within the ranks of the BCKEAI and quite a few of us teach them on a regular basis.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  2. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    Yep! and that did not do the group he trained with any favours either and their image even in certain FMA communitys went down a peg or two through no fualt of there own but simply because of the stupidity of one individual.

    Hence I and a few others are always concerned as to what skills you teach an individual and when.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  3. Pat,

    As I said I am not aquainted well enough with the facts to further comment.

    My initial point was that genuine FMA Seminars have to be very careful with their wording and then pandora's box opened. :(

    Ofcourse, I worry about the image of FMA and know all to well the experience of LEA's as my father was in the force for 20 years and have had friends on the force. In the current environment in the UK I can see how any bad publicity can affect all groups as a whole. I have probably lost site of this a bit training in parks, cemetery's and hotel roof-tops in the P.I so I apologize if I'm fanning the flames here :(
     
  4. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    Oh no your not fanning the flames at all, if anything it shows people that there is a right way to promote things and a wrong way to promote things and also shows we have to be cautious of what we teach and to whom.

    Maybe this kind of discussion can help the new up and comming FMA instructors realise just what a responsibility they are taking on.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  5. aamybush

    aamybush New Member

    Exactly !!! I do agree with arnisador if you want to start a detail discussion why not start a full dedicate thread for knife arts. that would be batter and you would have nice discussion too.
     
  6. Ah Loong

    Ah Loong New Member

    Kife Fighting in the UK- Setting the record straight!

    Hi everyone,

    Comments and articles have been brought to my attention about ‘teaching open knife fighting seminars’. It seems everyone their own version of this story and I think I need to set the records straight once and for all since I am the person in question.

    A few years back my teacher, GM Yuli, asked me to promote Bahad Zu’bu in my area and as the result I set up a seminar to do that. No! The seminar was not open to the public. If anyone cared to read the flyer properly they would have noticed that it clearly mentions “you have to be over 18, affiliated to an MA club and/or brown belt and above”. Granted, the title was rather catchy all be it true.

    Now the real story is that there was a lot of local government politics going on at the time about who controls what community hall. One of councillors and his cronies used this idea of me teaching knife fighting to kids in their hall whilst using real weapons to muddy the waters. Actually, none of these were true. I was we were and still are teaching a different form of MA in that specific community hall and have the full backing of the public there. The seminar, and indeed none of the Zu’bu classes, was ever held there; we had booked a different venue for the event.

    Furthermore, it was us who wrote to the local police inviting them to attend the seminar and to give us their approval. In fact, on the day we directly called the local police to ensure their presence. Needless to say the police expressed their utter satisfaction with the event. I need to also mention that at no time the police were actually able to stop the event. What we were doing was totally legal. That is why they ‘expressed concerns’ instigated by some ‘wannanbe politician’ with his own agenda. I believe after 30 years of MA experience and over decade of teaching I am experienced enough to know how to conduct an event.

    I was contacted about this and I did make it clear since I am not a affiliated with any association I am not bound by their rules, that as the direct student of GM Yuli I have is blessing and that I am a responsible, law abiding citizen with young children of his own who knows better not to do what was alleged. Please forgive my annoyance to see this matter is discussed and wrapped out of recognition here. I hope the records can now be set straight.

    Respect to all

    Punong Guro Ah Loong
    Bahad Zu’bu Mangtas Baraw (UK-London)


     
  7. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    I am confident that your intentions where very noble indeed, and yes it more than likely was blown all out of proportion via a Politicain trying to make a name for themselves, but like I said earlier the Politicians have to be seen to be doing something.

    The fact that you contacted the Police in advance is also very noble but it's self would have brought the attention of the powers that be, who have to be seen to be doing some thing and by the very wording on yor advertisement you actually gave him the ammunition to fire at you.

    You also have to remember that most people who are arrested for knife crime are between the ages of 18 and 25 years old and a lot of politicians for the best part veiw martial artists as mindless thugs who are learning deadly killing techniques, the Press does not help in this matter either when they run articles such as 'Killed by a martial arts expert', this only adds more fuel to the fire. So saying that the participants have to be over the age of 18 and be martial artists would only add fuel to his fire.

    A similar incident happend to me a couple of years ago, a freind of mine booked me to do a seminar in his area, he made up the posters and put them around the general area, now the picture he used of me was a pose of me and my wife holding 2 daggers, now I am not the prettiest of looking people and the picture did look quite intimidating. Now I was not even teaching knife defence at this event, but more so concentrating on the traditional art. But it caught the attention of the power that be and concerns where raised.

    I too was not doing anything ilegal and they could not stop the event, but my freind had to quickly adjust the posters to blank out the daggers to put the powers that be minds at ease.

    When he told me about it I told him it was a stupid thing to do placing that particular picture in public venues and was not surprised by the concerns raised. Yes I did have a chuckle about it to, after all it was too late and it was out there.

    After all a lot Politicians (especially those trying to make a name for themselves) see martial artists as mindless thugs and use oppertunities like this to be seen to be doing something.

    To show you how out of whack it can get, I was hosting an MMA event in Yorkshire one year and this particular Politician who was making a name for himself in the Houses of Parliment went all out trying to ban the event, saying it was dangerous and mindless violence that was being promoted in a public show. Now I could have understood where he was comming from if he was someone who had never seen a full contact contest between two individuals but he was not, as a matter of fact he was an avid fan and major supporter of the local Boxing shows which to my mind are far more dangerous to the individual than MMA and we pointed this out to him in the very same news papers he was ranting in.

    Now because this proffessional event was being held in a Night Club, we already had to interact with the Police, the Council and Fire Service.

    He tried everything, he sent in the Firebrigade to check the venue was safe, it was more than safe as the Fire Cheif said, he sent in the Police to check security for the event was adequate and it was more than adequate as the inspector said, and he still ranted on in the newspapers, so much so that he had built up public concerns which forced the Council to stop the event going ahead, even though we had held 3 MMA events at the very same venue over previous years.

    So you see, by interacting with the Police which is nobile and the right thing to do, they in turn have to make a report, which in turn goes up the ladder and will also be brought before a committee which will involve local Politicians, this very interaction and the wording on the posters is what gave the Politician the ammunition to come at you and with that they also contacted me, and I am sure they probably contacted a few others too some of whom may well have tried to re-enforce their veiws out of simple jealousy (such is martial arts politics). And you have to remember, what is said to you and what is said to others can be completely different, especially when you have a Politician on a mission to make a name for themselves.

    It is not what you do that matters so much, but more what you say you are doing that can get you in to incidents like this.

    For instance, if you are attacked in the street by a thug with a knife and during the struggle he is stabbed and killed, Now the Police will arrest you as a matter of course, if you say he attacked me with a knife so I kicked the crap out of him and he died, at the very least your are charged with Man Slaughter, now if you say, he attacked me with a knife and I was in fear of my life and I defended myself and once he stopped I stopped. That is Self Defence.

    Now imagine a hypathetical situation here, One day you are attacked by a knife weilding thug and you defend yourself and he happend to die in the struggle through no fault of your own, imagine which peice of evidence will be produced by the Possecution? A poster proclaiming to teach knife fighting maybe? And maybe they will brand you as a 'Knife Fighting Expert'? How do you think a Judge and Jury who have been told by the press and the politicians that there is a serious knife crime problem out there, how do you think they would look on it even though your intentions are good?

    Remember in front of a Judge and Jury they would see us as martial artists who use weapons to have complete control of our actions and have no fear in such situations and we should be able to use some mystical moves that render the attacker harmless without actually injuring him. It is a sad state of affairs but that is how we are looked upon, they think we are all Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan and Hong Kong Chop Sokey Fuey rolled into one.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  8. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    And here lies another problem in the UK, if you are not a member of a Governing Body teaching a Governement recognised martial art, you can have problems renting out halls to teach from as many Government owned halls and leisure centres will only allow those Martial Arts that are recognised by Governing Bodies.

    We have incidents of TKD guys being able to teach FMA in a Leisure Centre when the qualified FMA Instructor cant, This is one of the reasons that the BCKEAI was set up in the first place, and no the BCKEAI is not a Governeing Body either but is looked upon by some officials as being the nearest thing the FMA in the UK has to having one, hence there are times when they contact us for adivice on individuals whether they are withing the organisation or not.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  9. Ah Loong

    Ah Loong New Member

    Knife Fighting Seminar in London- Get the records straight!


    Hi everyone,

    Comments and articles have been brought to my attention about ‘teaching open knife fighting seminars’. It seems everyone their own version of this story and I think I need to set the records straight once and for all since I am the person in question.

    A few years back my teacher, GM Yuli, asked me to promote Bahad Zu’bu in my area and as the result I set up a seminar to do that. No! The seminar was not open to the public. If anyone cared to read the flyer properly they would have noticed that it clearly mentions “you have to be over 18, affiliated to an MA club and/or brown belt and above”. Granted, the title was rather catchy all be it true.

    Now the real story is that there was a lot of local government politics going on at the time about who controls what community hall. One of councillors and his cronies used this idea of me teaching knife fighting to kids in their hall whilst using real weapons to muddy the waters. Actually, none of these were true. I was we were and still are teaching a different form of MA in that specific community hall and have the full backing of the public there. The seminar, and indeed none of the Zu’bu classes, was ever held there; we had booked a different venue for the event.

    Furthermore, it was us who wrote to the local police inviting them to attend the seminar and to give us their approval. In fact, on the day we directly called the local police to ensure their presence. Needless to say the police expressed their utter satisfaction with the event. I need to also mention that at no time the police were actually able to stop the event. What we were doing was totally legal. That is why they ‘expressed concerns’ instigated by some ‘wannanbe politician’ with his own agenda. I believe after 30 years of MA experience and over decade of teaching I am experienced enough to know how to conduct an event.

    I was contacted about this and I did make it clear since I am not a affiliated with any association I am not bound by their rules, that as the direct student of GM Yuli I have is blessing and that I am a responsible, law abiding citizen with young children of his own who knows better not to do what was alleged. Please forgive my annoyance to see this matter is discussed and wrapped out of recognition here. I hope the records can now be set straight.

    Respect to all

    Punong Guro Ah Loong
    Bahad Zu’bu Mangtas Baraw (UK-London)
     
  10. Ah Loong

    Ah Loong New Member

    Knife Fighting- London

    Hi,

    I appreciate your sentiments but, without getting too much into it, I must say if we were to take your line of logic then we might as well not bother teaching Filipino combat. You can take all the precautions in the world but if someone, for whatever reason, wants to find faults I am sure they can.

    The facts are that I was not doing anything illegal which makes the so called ‘police concerns’ erroneous. We had a discussion with one police officer who thought it might be useful to contact the local police in case there is interest from fellow officer for further self defence training. Why would I not contact the local police? I have no intention of ‘hiding’ in case someone gets the wrong end of the stick (pardon the pun). Frankly as long as I am within the legal frame work and have the approval of GM Yuli I am happy to carry on regardless of the pseudo-concerns. My point is perfectly proven when you consider that the police came, saw and left perfectly happy. I don’t see anything ‘wrong’ with the way we publicised and conducted the seminar. It may be note worthy to mention we have had a couple of similar events since then without any ‘police concerns.

    Anyway, I just wanted to set the story right since what was being discussed was, for whatever reason, seemed to be giving the wrong impression.

    Respect to all,

    Punong Guro Ah Loong
    Bahad Zu’bu Mangtas Baraw (London-UK)
     
  11. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    As I said I am sure you intentions are honorable, but you also have to take the political climate into consideration as this does affect what you may well be allowed to do in the future. Look at the case of the Samurai sword restrictions that have now been put in place and all that after far less people having been attacked, injured and killed with them. I personally feel it was those few companies flooding the market with cheep imitations that brought this about in the first place, but what did not help was the fact that a Politician was also attacked with a Samurai sword and this drew their attention to it.

    Look back on the incident of the person who killed his parents who had a few FMA DVD's on 'Knife Fighting' look at the media attention this got and the impressions that where given all be it wrong. That is the reality of it and is something we as instructors have to look seriously at.

    As was mentioned in the Bill that was passed, the issue is not closed and the Government are still looking at many other areas. Now what if they decide that all knife arts are to be banned in the interest of public safety as they would put it, that would dictate what you where allowed to teach and what your where not allowed to teach. It is something they will be seriously looking at as knife crime far outways crime with Samurai swords.

    And I also said earlier that it is not what you do that counts, it is what you say that counts in these things.

    I am not hinding in the shadows from any of this and I do not live in fear of being attacked by a knife weilding thug, far from it and I do not feel I have to arm myself just in case, but I am realistic about how the Politician's are looking for scape goats to take the public gaze away from their inabbility to deal with real knife crime in the way it should be dealt with.

    They have restricted the use of Samurai swords to those who are members of a handfull of Government recognised organisations and to serious collectors, because of the very nature of the FMA dont kid yourself into thinking they will leave us alone and let us just plod along (pardon the pun) doing what we do without accountability.

    Unfortunelty it is the politicians who make and control the laws of the land and yes it can at times seem as though they are walking around with their heads up their backsides and have no real understanding of what we do and teach, but regardless of that we are in real terms in the minority and the public opinion is in the majority and if they feel they can sway public opinion by restricting certain things such as the use of Samurai Swords and possibly in the future knives, then we have to be in a possition to make sure they do not restrict what we are allowed to teach within our chosen art.

    Remember they have already banned the Balisong knife a long time ago and it is totally ilegal even to own one here in the UK, that has affected what we can teach in the FMA here in the UK, we have to make sure we give them no reason to take anymore away from us than they already have.

    Hence we have to be carefull what we say and how we promote what we do or who knows, the wrong ears could very well be listening and be in a possition TO BE SEEN TO BE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT, in the Public eye, just to make a name for themselves.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  12. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    The responsibilities of Martial Artists with regards to the law on knife crime can clearly be seen how it can affect you more than you realise.

    We have a martial arts aquantance who also owned a martial arts shop. One day he was raided by the Police who where notified that he was selling a knife that was ilegal, It was a knife concealed in a lighter. He was arrested and taken to court.

    He did not know that under UK law the knife was ilegal and his defence lawer pointed this out to the judge during the hearing. The judge replied that as a martial artist and a seller of martial arts products he should have made it his business to know the law and then sentanced him to a long term in prison. During his stay in one of Her Majesty's hotel resorts he lost his business and his relationship and since his release refuses to have anything to do with knives.

    Because he was not only the owner of the shop but also a martial artist the judge clearly stateted to him that he was being made an example of to send out a message to everyone in similar possitions that the need to understand the law is paramount and is our duty,

    The person in question did not know he was breaking the law and because of this quite innocently went about his business selling his products, one of which was deemed ilegal, even though he sold this item through ignorance he was still held accountable. We are by the very nature of what we do accountable in the eyes of the law whether we realise it or not.

    This sort of action is being taken because of the frenzy within the media that is being stirred up in the UK regarding knife crime and unfortunetly some may still fall foul to this frenzy even if their intentions are good. Such is the nature of things in the UK at the moment.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  13. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Knife Crime Statistics.

    Home Office flouted guidelines in 10 ways over knife crime statistics

    Any figures that fail to comply with code in future will be refused stamp of approval, says statistics body


     
  14. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    As I said before, the powers that be will try t be seen to be doing something as opposed to actually spending the funds to actually do something, hence we then see comments such as this.

     
  15. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    Boxer stabbed to death in front of his 3 year old daughter

    News Report
     
  16. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Lots of stories linked there about the 'knife epidemic' in the U.K., including the poster asking students to turn in otehr students who possess knives...they are obviously still very concerned out it out your way.
     
  17. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    Pat thanks for the insight. [​IMG]
     
  18. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    Well because the politicians and the press are building it up to such a frenzy kids now feel the need to arm themselves which in turn is leading to more and more incidents of knife crime amoungst the youth as they do not really have a real understanding of the dangers that a knife has and they are less likely to think before acting.

    So in part the politicians and press must bear some of the brunt for the increase in people carrying knives and the politicians must carry even more of the responsibility for not dealing with those who commit knife crime properly, all too often people caught carrying weapons are simply given a warning because the law does not have the facilities to deal with them due to over population of the prisions and the do gooders are quick to let them off as they feel it is because they are from broken homes and all tha BS.

    Deal with it properly and it will decrease. Go easy on them and they will do it again and again abd before you know it, it is too late for some one and their family.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  19. In a complete "knee-jerk" reaction ebay has banned all knives except cutlery from it's UK site. It was pressured into doing this by a consumer affair's TV programme.

     
  20. It's interesting and depressing at the same time. I was reading aroudn as it affects my business (wooden training and blunt aluminum training knives are also banned - go figure). Some people were like:

    and others (on a non-knife site) wrote:

    For me though, this poster encapsulates the effect of the knife ban on Ebay UK business at a time when all governments are trying to stimulate their local economy:

     

Share This Page