Kali Tudo (tm)

Discussion in 'Dog Brothers Martial Arts' started by Crafty Dog, Apr 21, 2009.

  1. Crafty Dog

    Crafty Dog Active Member

    Swordexperiment:

    Sorry, but I am not 100% sure of your meaning here. WHAT is "probably because MMA has more effective empty hands"?
     
  2. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    would it be more helpful to not take kali empty hands and just take another unarmed fighting sytem like karate, takewondo, or mma? I mean I'm pretty sure even krav maga surpassed kali in empty hand fighting. I feel kali-tudo is nothing more than just fencing with sticks with mma
     
  3. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member


    Oh thats my fault, I gave a half-assed comment.

    What i meant to say was: would it be better to take something like krav maga, mma, western boxing, muay thai, silat or mma rather than kali empty hands for something like kali tudo. Because kali tudo seems more like fencing with sticks and mma.
     
  4. Crafty Dog

    Crafty Dog Active Member

    Good question. Apart from silat, which has considerable striking similarities with silat, the answer IMHO is "No". Why? Using boxing as our example, all strikes are forehanded thrusts, be they straight (jab, cross) or curved (hook, uppercut, overhand). Thus there is but one hit per shift of body weight. In contrast when in double stick modality, kali striking readily can have two strikes per shift of bodyweight. Even though I need move no faster, as far as the opponent or adversary's neurological system is concerned suddenly I am twice as fast as I really am. It can be surprisingly easy to make many people flinch. I have more tools with which to strike, and more options for each of them. More aggressive footwork is enabled. OK then, if it is so wondrous, why have we seen so little of it in the cage? The answer has two parts. 1) People will do in the adrenal state what they have tested in the adrenal state and most people have not adrenalized their Kali. 2) Of the relatively few who have adrenalized their Kali, the overwhelming majority has done so single stick-- which for obvious reasons does not readily transpose. Neither of these apply to me. I HAVE adrenalized my Kali and I have done so with two sticks and so when I fight Kali Tudo I am mostly doing so with double stick movements. (For the record, I also use double ice pick knife movements too) The next logical question is whether it is necessary to fight with two sticks in order to be able to do this. My answer is that though it helps greatly, I know how to teach it so that it can be readily used by MMA fighters, though some elements of KT will be out of their reach.
     
  5. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member


    I see, but how does kali empty hands compare to unarmed systems like muay thai or thai boxing or western boxing? how do you keep up with the speed used in western boxing or the strikes like flying knees and punches from muay thai? not to mention how hard a muay thai practioner bones are. What exactly are the benefits of doing eskrima for empty hands, because it seems like watered down american karate.
     
  6. Crafty Dog

    Crafty Dog Active Member

    "What exactly are the benefits of doing eskrima for empty hands, because it seems like watered down american karate."

    Forgive me, but please note I did not say "do eskrima for empty hands". I said "Kali Tudo"(tm).

    As I have previously explained, (perhaps in this thread?) the meaning of the name is to acknowledge that the system uses quite a bit from "Vale Tudo" of Brazil. "Vale Tudo" means, roughly, "Valid Total" i.e. "Anything goes". It is what the original UFC did. Unlike the modern rules of MMA it allowed head butts; groin shots; and kicks, stomps, and knees to downed opponents; kicks to the kidney from guard, etc etc. As pronounced by most Americans, "Kali Tudo" and "Vale Tudo" sound quite similar and so for my perhaps odd sense of humor, there is a bit of punny levity intended in the name. The use of "tudo" in the name "Kali Tudo"(tm) is thus an acknowledgement of this influence.

    1) All of the strikes of boxing and MT are included in KT; (cf http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=206.0 )
    2) There are many additional strikes;
    3) One of the key advantages is that unlike Boxing and MT which have one hit per shift of body weight, KT often has two hits per shift of body weight (and occasionally three)-- thus as far as the opponent's neurological system is concerned, when the KT fighter is in this modality he suddenly is twice as fast as he otherwise would be;
    4) The footwork is different in important respects;
     
  7. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    Kali empty hands

    I apologize, that was my bad for misreading on my part. I understand that in kali tudo, there is two hits per shift, but I assume that in kali tudo there is a mixture of various striking arts like in brazillian vale tudo which consisted of many fighters of different martial arts background going against each other like in todays mma fights. You would have someone with a bjj backround and boxing going against people who did Capoeira etc. I was more concerned on YOUR view on kali empty hands/ Panantukan versus other unarmed martial arts like karate, boxing and muay thai. I assume you use other unarmed striking systems like boxing or others to compensate kali/eskrima empty hands/ panatukan. No?
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
  8. Crafty Dog

    Crafty Dog Active Member

    "I assume that in kali tudo there is a mixture of various striking arts"

    I would not put it this way.

    Of course much of this can be a matter of definitions-- so here is how I see it:

    Kali striking includes all the strikes of boxing and more through its own lineage, not from importing boxing. Indeed, it has been argued (plausibly in my opinion) that some influence went from the Philippines to boxing.

    Similarly it includes all the strikes of Muay Thai and more through its own lineage, not from importing MT.

    FWIW IMHO the Kali striking is one of the strong points of Kali Tudo. Of course I do not claim it is best for everyone, but certainly for me it is the way I do best. I have numerous people whom I train who tell me it is improving their results.

    Of course at 61 years of age those who spar with me must take my age into account, but in that context I can do some really interesting things. The striking vs striking advantages of KT for me and some of the people that I train are such that opponents resort to other structures-- principally good use of the front leg and the elevation drop & shoot.

    Regarding the latter, this is precisely why I brought my friend, noted MMA wrestling trainer Kenny Johnson in for the Kali Tudo-3 DVD shoot as guest instructor-- so that our people would be sure to have top flight understanding of a good MMA sprawl.

    Since then I have developed some understandings that I call the "Time Machine Game" that include some really good options for striking against the drop & shoot. While sparring against a 26 year old amateur MMA fighter with a wrestling background back in December it was working really well for me. Indeed the coach (a 6-3 UFC fighter btw) put me in precisely so I would test this man with my anti-grappling game. I foiled him a number of times with it, including one time where I could have had a one punch knock out-- "no brag, just fact" as a punch line of a TV cowboy show of my youth would say. Of course, it being a friendly sparring I dialed back the power considerably, but I had him timed perfectly.

    My assertion is this: Upper sector strking vs. upper sector striking, Kali striking as a lot to offer. It's primary intention is, as my friend Chris Gizzi would say, for "going nitrous". Though it has evasionary and pot-shotting games and tactics, its essence is about going nitrous.
     
  9. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    Thats a very good way of putting it, I was wondering if you teach the guard in kali tudo or just kali in general? the guard isn't just used in bjj or judo, I've seen a lot of other martial arts like muay thai, silat and others that also use the guard, I was wondering if eskrima/kali does the same?
     
  10. Crafty Dog

    Crafty Dog Active Member

    (Tangent: MT uses the guard? I've not seen this, , ,)

    Good question.

    I would answer this way.

    Though the Philippines have grappling systems/facets of systems (dumog, buno, elements of modified Judo as in GM Cacoy Canete's Eskrido, and others) FWIW my American sense of things is that grappling focused systems tend to be dedicated to young male ritual hierarchical combat (my penis is bigger than yours, but ultimately we are within the same social unit) whereas the inner logic of the Filipino systems tends to be different. These subsystems have within their inner logic the idea that opponent's often are adversaries with knives or other weapons (e.g. strong pepper in a prepared hankerchief to affect the eyes).

    FWIW my American educated sense of things (though all my teachers have been Filipino or American born Filipino) is that there was not really a guard game in the FMA systems before the UFC of which I was aware. With the advent of teh UFC this began to change. When I was with GT Gaje at his home in Bacolod in 1997 (or was '98?) he expressed curiosity about the BJJ that he heard I had been doing. In the spirit of friendly sharing I invited one of his top students into my guard.

    "What would you do here?" I asked.

    He simulated spitting into my eyes and following up with a hearty hit during my OODA loop disruption.

    I was not expecting that.

    As I said, the inner logic of the FMA is different.

    That night I shared my understanding of the BJJ guard with GT Gaje.

    You can bet your life that since then he has been thinking about it and applying Kali to the questions presented! This is what Kali has always done! Note that many of the answers will involve weapons.

    In my Kali Tudo subsystem we have a guard game and an anti-guard game. For anti-guard game see

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWVOrUt2G00 (some footage in here is relevant to other themes in our conversation as well)

    and

    http://dogbrothersgear.com/DVDs/Kali-Tudo-2.html

    There is a DBMA Kali Tudo Guard Game as well, but I have not yet put any of it to DVD.

    Does this help answer your question?
     
  11. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member


    kind of, I understand that fma does have a different mentality, but you have to realize that many of these actions are not native to kali/eskrima/arnis. I mean sure the mentality of dirty fighting is more understood and refined in kali but you have to realize that even though it isn't gone over in all the time in things like say bjj or catch wrestling. It still can be used and has been used in those fighting systems, but things like the sprawl, guard etc seem to be big things that are very helpful in grappling in bjj and wrestling but ones like eye grouging that is used in kino mutai or dumog are not just used or exclusive to them. Also, they will not work all the time, those things like spitting, eye grouging etc, there are situations where you might not be able to use them, where else in mma, bjj you can always use the guard and basic punches and kicks
     
  12. Crafty Dog

    Crafty Dog Active Member

    "you have to realize that many of these actions are not native to kali/eskrima/arnis"

    Ummm , , , yes I already realize that :) I was simply doing my best to answer your question as asked.
     
  13. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    Right, I still question how your able to beat your opponent when not using these techniques, because bjj and catch wrestling is able to defeat their opponents when with out having to have to use these methods of attacks. I'm not saying that doing eye grougs like in kino mutai is bad, its just that, it shouldn't be the only reliance when it comes to grappling in dumog. Let me ask you, how useful is dumog when facing an unarmed person who has a backround in high school wrestling and has no knowledge of submissions?
     
  14. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    I understand that the logic or mentality is different in fma, I just figured that there are limits to doing those actions like what gt gaje did
     
  15. Crafty Dog

    Crafty Dog Active Member

    Starting to feel like we are going in circles here. You asked a question that I understood to be a factual query about the guard and such and it was in that spirit I answered it. Again, the name of the sub-system is "Kali Tudo" (tm) the "tudo" being an acknowledgement of the influence of Vale Tudo, which, inter alia, most certainly does have a guard.

    Of course "there are limits to doing those actions"-- in great part that is precisely why I have developed the "Kali Tudo" system!-- to accept the challenge of the cage and not hide behind "dirty tricks". See the URL for the article I wrote on Kali Tudo earlier in this thread for more on this.
     
  16. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    I see, so I assume you incorporate other foreign fighting systems because you believe that kali by itself can hold itself in a fight against other systems with unarmed?
     
  17. Crafty Dog

    Crafty Dog Active Member

    I'm doing the best I can in answering your questions, but I am beginning to feel like you are looking for a debate whether there is one or not. What is your point here? That I use things in addition to Kali? Ummm , , , Duh. That would be why, for example, I call this sub-system of DBMA "Kali Tudo" and not Kali.
     
  18. Crafty Dog

    Crafty Dog Active Member

    Though due to my shoulder injury and his busy training schedule we have not had much time of late, here is my coach Pedro Munhoz in the UFC held in Brazil this past weekend. This is his second UFC fight. His first was a loss against #3 contender Rafael Ascuncao on two weeks notice. He looked good in the loss and now has notched his first win.

    http://mmammavs.blogspot.com/2014/05...-ultimate.html

    Some nice righty vs. lefty work here, based on what in "Kali Tudo" we call "Trigg 101" because I learned it from Frank Trigg who challenged Matt Hughes for the middleweight title 2 or 3x IIRC.

    Since the 8-10 years in which I put the Trigg material into our KT-1 DVD, the game has changed and thrusting kicks to the front leg (e.g. Anderson Silva, Bones Jones) or even front side kicks (Cung Le vs. Frank Shamrock) mean that the Trigg 101 material has had to evolve.

    However in this fight the opponent appears not to have had those front leg thrusting kicks and the Trigg 101 material worked fine.
     
  19. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

  20. Crafty Dog

    Crafty Dog Active Member

    First a moment of advertising LOL. Since that article was written DLO-2 has been released (The Running doig Game--Kali Tudo against the Guard) and DLO 3 (standing striking and anti grappling shoot) with guest instructor highly regarded MMA grappling coach Kenny Johnson. In July the DBMA Summer Training Camp will be on "The Time Machine Game" which is for both double stick and for MMA. It is the current cutting edge of KT and I confess to being quite tickled with it. In my own sparring and my students sparring it has been doing quite well. There will be a DVD/download from the Camp. Given the amount of material I plan on showing it will probably be a double disc.

    You are correct in how most people view FMA (Eskrima, Arnis, Kali, and others) and in most cases they may well be correct. However in my lineage LaCoste Inosanto Kali and some other systems (e.g. Pekiti Tirsia, Sayoc, others) IMHO the panantukan is quite advanced. When blended with Brazil's "Vale Tudo" (think the original rules of the UFC and you will have the gist of it) in my opinion it becomes something quite formidable.

    In the logic of DBMA the mission statement is "To walk as a warrior for all your days". As we get older we lose interest in young male ritual hierarchical fights (e.g. boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai, MMA) and focus more and more on "the interface of gun, knife, and empty hand". In DBMA we call this category DLO for Die Less Often. Thus the system has three basic areas: Weapons, Empty Hand, DLO. Our idea is to manifest the promise of the art that the movements of the empty hands are like those of the weapons. IF this is true, then in a DLO situation, where reactions times can be extremely short and extremely sudden, it can be a tremendous reactionary advantage not to have to identify the nature of the attack and choose the appropriate operating system and its appropriate technique.

    Sounds good I know, but I also know that the question arises: Why haven't we seen it in the cage? I have discussed this at considerable length before so now I will be brief. The essence is that people will do in the adrenal state what they have tested in adrenal state-- thus leaving us with the circular logic of it's not used because it has not been used. Even people who have fought with single stick are not adrenally prepared properly.

    On the other hand I feel I did my best fighting as a double stick fighter and so I had the necessary background to begin the research into the KT hypothesis. This research has persuaded me that Kali possesses considerable merit as an empty hand striking system in the context of MMA and that the MMA laboratory prepares one to use these movements in DLO situations.

    Have I answered your question?
     

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