Kali Pekiti-Tirsia or Dan Inosanto

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by ochezburgess, Jul 4, 2011.

  1. ochezburgess

    ochezburgess New Member

    Iam trying to find out, which style of Kali is the most comprehensive ? So far I have narrowed it down to two systems. Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and Dan Inosanto's system of kali. Iam a beginning student just starting out and I want to join the best possible system. What Iam after is street applicable defense. I want to learn an art that I can't find just on the street courner. I have heard so many things about both systems. I.ve heard that Pekiti-Tirsia is the most complete system in existance. Dan Inosanto's system is highly commercialized and to me that is a very big red flag. I want to start training in a system that will have me learning and improving for the rest of my life. I have also heard alot about FC (Filipino Combatives) which I hear is a blend of all the Filipino systems. I have also heard alot about the Sayoc knife system which sounds a little far out, because I probably wont always have a knife on me and if I do use that system it is obvious that my assailant wont survive, so I'll be on trial for murder. I presently live here in the L.A. area. Can anybody clue me in on this one? I want the most comprehensive Kali out there, is there such a thing?
  2. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    I haven't heard about Filipino Combatives but Pekiti Tirsia Kali, Inosanto Kali, and Sayoc Kali are all well-known, established, and comprehensive systems. You could spend a lifetime studying any of them and still not exhaust your possibilities. All three are "commercialized" to one extent or another (that's just a by-product of living in a capitalist society), but if you choose your school carefully and practice your basics you'll be fine. All three systems have a knife curriculum, by the way; it's up to you to face up to your responsibilities in this regard. Just treat the knife with the same respect that you'd give a firearm: Mas Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme" is a good place to brush up on the ethical and legal dimensions. I'm not sure about L.A.'s laws regarding knife carry, however - so if you carry a folder make sure that it's well within legal limits. I'm guessing that the blade shouldn't be longer than 3 1/2 inches.

    I'd lean towards Pekiti if I were you - but I'm biassed...

    FYI Dan Insosanto is Pekiti Tirsia International's North American Representative; Chris Sayoc studied with Leo Gaje back in the day...

    Steer clear of the politics: that's one sign that you're wasting your time.


  3. Danny T

    Danny T New Member

    ”Steer clear of the politics…”
    Steve has already stated some excellent advice.

    All of the training methods you have questioned are “Excellent”. I also tend to be a bit biased toward Pekiti however; I do train a several times a year with Guro Dan I. His training system is a combination of several methodologies of which Pekiti Tirsia is a major part. A large portion of his knife work is from Pekiti as well as his stick locks. Guro Dan has had, if memory serves, 33 different FMA instructors and his system utilizes something from all of them. That said his system is not just a bunch of techniques thrown together. The practitioner will systematically learn movement, positional control, tactics, and strategies utilizing all categories of weapons to empty hand. Standing and on the ground.

    I have had a couple of opportunities to train with a few FC practitioners and from what I have seen it too is an excellent system.

    As to comprehensiveness, from what I know of the systems (I know far more of PT than the others) it will depend upon:
    1. the instructor; how well versed is the instructor in the system and how is the system presented and trained.
    2. the individual; it does not matter how comprehensive you want your training system to be. What matters is how comprehensive do you actually train!
    (I know many who say they want a comprehensive system but only train in a very small aspect of the system.)
    How many different environments do you train?
    How many different types of opponents do you train for and more importantly how many do you actually train against?
    How many different weapons do you train with and against?
    How many different scenarios do you train for?

    Enjoy the training.

    Danny T
  4. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    My best advice would be to "try out" a few places and see which instructor and group "fits you" the best.
  5. ochezburgess

    ochezburgess New Member

    Thanx alot! This helps......
  6. ochezburgess

    ochezburgess New Member

    Thanx...this does help
  7. ochezburgess

    ochezburgess New Member

    Thank You.....I'll do that
  8. equilibrium

    equilibrium Member

    I don't think Pekiti-Tirsia Kali is a good fit if you think you might have a problem carrying a knife on you every day.
  9. littlebadboy

    littlebadboy Junior Member

    Hey... be fair. No other FMA is better than the other. I think most of the basics are generic and may only differ in philosophy and methods. Just choose whichever you think suits your needs.

    Good luck and have fun!
  10. acdcnate

    acdcnate New Member

    It depends on what you are looking for

    This really is not an option of "what is better" because that is all up to you.
    I recommend trying out both systems as another person has mentioned. Here is a basic breakdown of the two systems (which I have studied both, and this is only what I have gathered, nothing more or less).
    1)PTK is not a sport. Plain and simple, it will work you out and move you, but the bottom line is that you are there to kill and defend yourself. There is no point sparring or "stick" sparring. Everything is the blade.
    2) Inosanto Kali has a lot of information to offer and utilizes a lot of systems. I find it to be more sporty though, but does offer a great work out.
    3) PTK tends to be a little cheaper, but both are great values.
    4) You are in LA, and have many instructors in your area. If you want a real PTK instructor, the only PTK instructors are listed on the PTK website, www.ptkgo.com. These are instructors commissioned by GT or Tim Waid, or any of their instructors with their permission. I do not know if Inosanto has a website, but if he does, chose one of those instructors.
    5) Remember with your decision, nothing can be learned from a movie or DVD, these are great tools, but they are just that. You need to learn from the operator of said tool.
    6) If you have the time and money, do both for a while. I did and chose PTK eventually. Try a few seminars from both instructors and find what you really need in your training. Both systems have friendly environments and great people and the more your network, the better you get.

    If you have any other questions, contact me and we can email. Hope you have fun in your choice and training.
  11. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    I have been fortunate enough to train both systems under well respected instructors.

    Having said that there are a few things to consider.

    First, There is plenty of stick sparring in PTK, there are literally dozens of videos confirming this, most of them with GT Gaje refereeing the matches. There are also many legitimate PTK instructors who are not affiliated with Tim Waid's organization. Tuhon Gelinas, Tuhon McGrath, Tuhon Buck, Tuhon Tortal, Master Ballarta, etc. are all not listed under Tim Waid's group to my knowledge. There are others as well. Heck, many of the major groups (Pekiti Tirsia International, Texas Kali Association, Pekiti Tirsia Pitbulls) are not listed in that instructor list at all. There are also several unaffiliated persons who have legitimate rank directly from GT Gaje.

    I love PTK and spent the last year or so training it but I hate the political nonsense that often crops up. I also hate the myths that come out such as "we are purely focused on the blade" and stuff along those lines. PTK has way too much stick work in it to make that claim. Sayoc Kali says the same thing "all blade all the time" or something like that. Then they released a Stick Grappling DVD. I went to a seminar with Tuhon Kier of Sayoc. Great seminar! The entire morning was spent on stick grappling.

    Virtually every FMA system has a substantial if not the majority of their system focused on stick work. Exceptions might be systems such as Kadena de Mano which is almost all knife and empty hand. But those are truly exceptions rather than the rule.

    Now, looking at the Lacoste-Inosanto system there are some things to think about as well. The main issue that I see and run into is that there is little in the way of consistency regarding what is taught, how it is taught, etc. I have yet to find an Inosanto instructor that has a formal curriculum outside of Rick Faye. There are probably others but I have not run across them. This creates problems in my view. For example, depending in when someone studied under Guro Dan, they will have learned a different blend of arts. Some of these arts are very complimentary and some are not. The system is very drill focused which creates the problem that the principles that some drills are designed to teach violate the principles that other drills are designed to teach because they come from arts with vastly different philosophies on how to handle given situations.

    Pekiti, Illustrisimo, Villabreal-Larusa, Lacoste, Giron Largo Mano, Kadena de Mano... those are all systems that work fairly well together. Now throw in Balintawak and Serrada and you have a problem. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with Balintawak or Serrada, merely that they have different rules than the other ones do. Their concepts of range, timing, stick length, role of the live hand, footwork, disarming, heck almost everything are so different from an art such as PTK or Illustrisimo that they just don't play well together. Groups such as Bahala-Na Multi style or Inayan Eskrima have gotten around this issue but have a primary art for a given range. E.g., if you are close, you do KDM, if you are in medio you do Serrada, and if you are Largo then you do Giron Largo Mano. I have limited experience with those arts so I can't comment to much on them.

    When you have an instructor that does not create a curriculum that means that they likely have not taken the time to work through things in order to find out which drills compliment each other, which techniques do not work together, and how to structure the learning and teaching to maximize the result which is the student's performance. This is a problem. The highest form of learning is where the person learning gets to the point that they are able to identify and correct their own errors of execution of a given skill or task. If you have no overriding philosophy to work from or no truths which remain true all the time, this become difficult. What is wrong and what is right technique? If you are doing Pekiti Tirisia and looking at it through that eye, things could be very wrong but for a Serrada person, it could be perfectly correct. Both are awesome systems, but they are coming from very different places.

    Guro Dan has publicly stated that he will not designate an Heir and will not formalize a curriculum. So, unless you affiliate with one of the big groups such as Minnesota Kali Group or something along those lines you are likely to deal with this problem. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Dan Inosanto and the system. When done well it is as effective as anything that you will ever find. However, you need to be aware of the issues and the curriculum one is a big deal.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2011
  12. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    To the OP. There are a good many well respected FMA people in the area you are in. I recommend taking your time and finding what feels best to you. Talk to the instructor. Look at the students and ask how long they have been training. If there are a few guys who look pretty good and have only been going a year or two chances are you are going to learn quickly as well. If there are senior students present who look sloppy and like they couldn't fight Martha Stewart, you will likely look the same so you should go somewhere else. Take someone experienced in FMA with you if you need to to help you spot issues.

  13. Jack Latorre

    Jack Latorre Siyam

    Well put, Jason, regarding both posts. I was hoping to perhaps make your acquaintance at the recent PTI Camp (you had mentioned that you might attend) but another time then. Good luck in your training and your continued exploration of how this all ties together and becomes functional.


    Jack A. Latorre
  14. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    Thanks Jack. I have recently moved again and am in a place where the Lacoste-Inosanto and Sayoc systems are offered but not PTK. To be honest, I was having difficulty training PTK in the first place, not because of the system or the instructor (Guro McCleary is extremely skilled and a good teacher) but because I lived almost 2 hours away. That forced me to only go up for training once a month which makes it difficult to really learn things effectively. I am happy to be in a place where I can get regular weekly training again, regardless of system.
  15. equilibrium

    equilibrium Member

    blade culture

    Grand Tuhon Gaje talks about blade culture...There is a certain mindset in different martial arts. I say that Pekiti Tirsia Kali is a more combat oriented system. I sense in Guro Inosanto a reluctance to teach or embrace the extreme violence which is combat type mentality.

    From what the original post said, I think the Inosanto system fits his mentality better. A person going to Afganistan would more likely want to embrace the Grand Tuhon Gaje mentality. Everything has it's place.

    Pekiti-Tirsia Kali is not a collection of techniques from here or there and it hasn't changed significantly in curriculum from what I can see. (I have lots of old video footage and recent video footage)

    I see the focus on the blade; though being a system, the system applies to all weapons, so there are stick-specific techniques without a doubt. Since training beginners with sharp swords is not recommended, and contests of skill can not be repeated with bladed weapons, the stick is seen alot but it is more because of safety issues than preference. It is a training weapon that substitutes for the sword. (but like I said, the stick in a weapon in the system as well as as training substitute for the sword)

    Here is a clip of Grand Tuhon Gaje talking about blade culture and systems.
  16. acdcnate

    acdcnate New Member

    Meant no disrespect

    I meant no disrespect towards any other instructor. I was simply talking about finding a PTK instructor still affiliated with PTK Global. This is not run by Tuhon Waid, but by GT Gaje with Tuhon Waid doing most of the work because of his ability to network and socialize stateside.

    There is no point in arguing on the internet about the different systems. In my opinion, each sector of PTK (Texas Kali, PTKI, and Global) should each have their own sub section to stop this bickering.

    Tuhon Phillip is affiliated and activley listed on the PTKGO site. I have trained with him and he is a very well thought out and talented PTK instructor.

    To the original point, this arguing will drive away people from Pekiti, we have differences,who doesn't? Keep them to yourselves and just be here to educate and talk about different topics. The truth is known by those who are privileged to know it and gather it, as Grand Tuhon once told me.

    Best of training to you all.
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2011
  17. acdcnate

    acdcnate New Member

    What part of Texas are you in?
  18. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    There used to be one for each but there was still bickering. However, in this case, there was no bickering taking place.

    You stated the following:
    This statement flat out claims that only people affiliated with PTGO are real PTK instructors. This is false, and I imagine you were aware of that before you stated it. I called you on it. Period.
  19. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    North Texas...
  20. blindside

    blindside student

    One of the reasons for the relative lack of discussion in these Pekiti forums is that for some reason Pekiti guys seem to be unable to "keep it to ourselves," and about half the posters got banned in under 30 posts. Take a look back about three years on these forums for real bickering, this is just discussion.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2011

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