Discussion in 'Kali Ilustrisimo' started by jwinch2, Jan 29, 2010.
Good luck with the seminar!
When I was with Master Yuli, he was still doing some of what he called the "Bahad Zu'Bu Kalis Ilustrisimo curriculum", but was allready pushing his own way of training/teaching (then called "Mangtas Baraw") which is very different from Mang Tonys approach. Still, he would always emphasize that most of the fighting techniques and principles of what he is doing came from "the old man". (Whereas the teaching method may include principles from his training with Joe Go or others.)
The only way to make this 3-per-cent statement work would may be to say that his training approach is very different from the way KI is taught by others. - At least that would be the only explanation that may make a little sense to me other than him making a joke...
so what are the differences between the different approaches? and what do they try to accomplish with these different approaches?
It's the aforementioned "Preservationist" v "Evolutionary" approach. Master Tony has kept strictly to the teachings of Tatang whilst Master Yuli has incorporated things he learned from GM Joe Go and "Repikada-Pigada" from the Borinaga family.
There's also a lot of Master Yuli's personal expression in the art too which is to be expected .
Twist may have other insights as he also trained with Master Pedring Romo, GM Yuli's brother. Master Pedring also trained with Tatang and teaches his own expression of the Ilustrisimo System.
Ah ha! Just found this on google and was the original thread I was looking for:
Some groups use forms(kata) and put quite an emphasis on their importance, others don't have any forms at all. Some are into sparring(sniping, isolation) more than anything else, others seldom spar. Some practices hardcore basics, others simply glances the basics and go straight to the most advanced concepts and techniques. Some are heavy into reversals of techniques, others are into enganios. Some are into perfecting and refining classical techniques, others are into elaborations of principal concepts. Some have preset sequences, others don't have any. Some plays freestyle contra por contra a lot, others hate it a lot so rarely do it. Some trains empty-hands, some don't. Only a few will/can teach the whole Ilustrisimo system, principles, methods, tactics, techniques, and weapons. Most focus on the use of all of the traditional weapons like single-handed weapons, double-handed weapons, and two-weapons.
Thats something you should experience for yourself
Or have a look at the videos on youtube, they should give you an idea as the teaching approach of Master Yuli is shown in several videos and there are some clips of Mang Tony at Luneta online as well.
Also, as far as I've seen and been told by his students, the teaching approach of Master Galang is very different from the other pillars as well...
I think every teacher has his own style, based on his experience, e.g. you will see a lot of Joe Go's methods when training with Master Yuli, as well as his physical abilities - Master Yuli moves very different from any person I've ever seen
I totally agree...I had the opportunity to learn direct from 6 of Tatang's students and they all present the art in their own unique way. All of them excellent.
I guess this is also mainly due to the fact that Tatang did not have a set curriculum or progam of teaching.
Yes, that's what I was thinking too.
Master Yuli said that they would observe Tatang react to different attacks and then practice his many responses. The next week they would perform them in front of him to see his reaction.
Without a formal curriculum and learning "By observation" it is inevitable that differences would exist. Added to that is apparently he (Tatang) never reacted exactly the same way twice.
That's why I respect this art and its seniors. Its great to learn from the 1st generation so we can learn and understand Tatang's art better.
Take care and regards.
IMO, Tatang has a formal curriculum but guys trained in foreign martial arts failed to recognize it because it didn't jibe well with their expected framework of learning and teaching a martial art so they simply dismissed tatang's method of teaching as "random" or "capricious". Its easier to see it as is if you start clean without anything to hamper your learning.
Tatang's skills may not be replicated but his techniques can be learned and are repeatable. Attacks are like questions that can be answered in myriad ways. Again, if you're expecting an answer to come out similar to your point of view, then the answer you'll get might seemed odd to you. When you ask, you may expect confirmations or affirmations but when you ask tatang, he'll simply give you his answers. Tatang never taught or answered in rote, his teachings were always fresh and in accord of what was in hand.
Why are you flogging this particular dead donkey Raul?
Master Tony had experience of other arts before he met Tatang. He is the appointed GM of the Ilustrisimo system.
Also, I must've completely mis-understood what GM Yuli and GM Tony were saying when they discussed training with Tatang. I must have also mis-interpreted page 27 of the work "The secrets of Kalis Ilustrisimo" by Tony Diego and Christopher Ricketts:
Like I said, this thread is in danger of becoming a "Dead Donkey" when we should be respectful of the art and all of it's various interpretations and instructors.
I find it difficult to understand why you can quote an obscure interview with Master Yuli but not recognize my allusion to the only book (to my knowledge) published on the Ilustrisimo system - and most of it is photos too!
Anyway, I suspect I already know the answer
No its not Simon, its the keystone to perflexing questions that can be easily and plainly answered.
Yes he had.. and he is the de facto heir of the Ilustrisimo system, undisputed and irrefutable fact.
I have to find the book. Anyway, whatever that was written there has no bearing with what I said. My opinions are mine and differing opinion doesn't mean disrespect, everybody has one.
I am respectful of various interpretations that's why I sincerely encouraged everyone to trained with all of those that teach KI to see a bigger and non-partisan picture of KI.
I'm trying to find that book now. Can't Google it so it might take time. I can easily quote Yuli because he is his own man, he is alive and changes every time while a book is dull and unchanging. Can you blame me for that?
I suspect not. Just ask Simon, you might not like the answer but you will find it.
In answer to your points:
We are talking about Kali Ilustrisimo. Having your own opinion is fine. Disagreeing with the two most senior students (and 'Topher Ricketts who also has his name on the book) seems illogical and to a point - disrespectful.
Frankly, yes I can.
You quote GM Yuli from an interview which was published in a magazine. That is also "Dull and unchanging".
Anyway, we are discussing facts - i.e how the system was taught. Why the need for color?
Furthermore, the chapter with which I quoted is entitled:
"History and Development" and the sub-section "Systematizing the Art", co-authored by the current GM of the Ilustrisimo system. Would that not be a better reference for this thread?
It's possible to preview the book on Amazon.
Even better to own a copy if you fancy debating it on internet forums Maybe once purchased it'll give you something to discuss with your face-book group?
It's just words I could ask but really how would it help me and my study? I care about movement and not words or what happened 20 or so years ago. It won't help my art any.
If I was so inclined to I could ask GM Tony next time he's sat next to GM Yuli at Luneta. However, San Miguel has not corroded my memory to the extent I can't recall the exact conversation at Palasan a few years back.
Like I say, hopefully we can move on and get back to our mutual appreciation of the art and all those who practice it.:ladysman:
This is me leaving the thread!
We're not on the same page Simon, you're talking about kali Ilustrisimo told to you by your teachers and kali Ilustrisimo that you've read. I was talking about my own experience of Ilustrisimo. I did not study other FMA's so whatever was in front of me was always complete. I had no expectations so I did not missed nothing like, "Where's the curriculum?", "Where's the progressions?", "Where's the basics?", "Where's the structure?", Where are the forms?". I will never attribute whatever lack of comprehension I had to the inability of my master to competently teach. That to me is the disrespect. So if you are literally believing the statement, "The master can't teach." then I'm telling you that you're wrong. You should interpret the statement as it really meant to be understood which was, "The students can't learn." Now, I can illustrate this to you why it is so when we meet.
It's not tatang's obligation to anyone to learn when he never offered himself to teach so whatever he gave was more than enough.
Also, don't equate not disagreeing to respect and disagreeing to disrespect. Flat-out decision not to disagree is flat-out subservience, not respect. Ability to disagree means you have a self that you respect and not necessarily disrespecting the other person with opposing opinion.
If you think and feel that I am putting/pulling down mang Yuli in anyway, you're flat-out wrong.
And I presented my own facts. If there was a system, then there was a curriculum. If there was no system, then how can it be taught? If it can't be taught, then what do they've learned?
It was different from what you expected so you stamped it as disrespect.
I told you I got the book! How can you doubt that I don't own one?
You can always refer to it of course. But reading it should give you insights to THE authors' experience.
I have no fancy debating the contents of the book, I endorse it. But I can also accommodate any questions, can't I? This is supposed to be a forum about KI, not about particular KI guys but simply about KI and anything about KI. This is not a forum of and for a captive KI audience or disciples. I will appreciate it if you won't label my posts as disrespect if they're going against the grain of your beliefs.
The reverse is true with me, I forgot everything because of the spirits. So anybody who can find faults in whatever I teach and say, don't blame my master. I take all responsibility for my words and actions.
Out of interest, did Tatang ever alter his approach to presenting his art depending where he was? i.e. a public demo, luneta or tondo
Good question Oosh and I would be interested in the answer to that one too. Master Yuli certainly does as there are many crazy people at Luneta and also smart people who go there to observe the other groups.
Raul - we'll just have to agree to disagree
I'm talking about Kali Ilustrisimo as told to me not just by my teacher but by your teacher and GM of the system. What they said was also repeated in the book I quoted.
I don't hold "beliefs". If they both tell me something and I then read it in a book co-authored by yet another Master of K.I it's a good chance it's true don't you think?
Sure, this is about the system of K.I. I question why what you are saying is different to the 2 most senior students of that system and frankly find it a bit odd.
What do you think, Oosh?
No its not about the system of KI, its about your beliefs about KI. Its a belief because its hearsay, second hand information. Your source may be connected to the truth but you're not, therefore, all you have are beliefs. You really can't be sure, can you? I say something different because I am not reciting someone else life stories, I am speaking for myself. You can't disagree because you don't have a story yourself. You can only choose who to believe.
I'd assume so...but I wasn't there to experience it, so just an assumption based on video footage. In one clip Tatang shows pluma at corto, nose to nose style, like how many heated "chats" turn into something more serious...whereas with the public footage it seems to be more of the classical feeder/receiver scenarios. I'm guessing really...what was your experience/take on it?
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