Kali empty hands vs other unarmed martial arts

Discussion in 'General' started by swordexperiment, Mar 24, 2014.

  1. jspeedy

    jspeedy Member

    BJJ guys cross train in Judo to up their standup grappling game and vise versa, it has less to do with lack of skill and everything to do with knowledgeable fighters who have a realistic view of their system knowing where they could improve, and going to a specialist for what they what. I'm sure their are plenty who believe FMA empty hands is good enough that they could walk into a ring and take a championship title. Same as their are purists in every art who view what they do as superior to anything and everything else. I've known kung fu guys who claim they would destroy an MMA fighter if only they could use their deadliest techniques and I've known Kung Fu guys who go and train San Da and even Muay Thai because they realize the value of specialized training. In the 90s there were countless tae kwon do practitioners who knew they didn't need anything else to fight, now you have TKD schools offering a myriad of other training options along side their art.
  2. Perry Coumas

    Perry Coumas New Member

    Ok, I am done with this thread. Nothing I say is going to change Swordexperiments mind. I have explained how training with a weapon increases attributes. I have explained that FMA empty hands has been influenced by many empty hand arts and contains good elements from a number of systems. I have explained that I doubt that any FMA empty hands only practitioners exist and as a result you will not find an FMA empty hands vs Boxer/Muay Thai etc. Most FMA practitioners that I have met from PI trained in Karate or Boxing before FMA while growing up.

    I return to my three options stated in a prior post:

    1. Find an FMA practitioner that impresses you and train with him and see if you get better.

    2. Find an FMA practitioner or master and glove up

    3. Train in boxing or Muay Thai and go to a "Gathering of the Pack" and go against a fighter who trains Kali Tudo (TM) and see how your training stacks up.

    I think that you need to see or feel to believe and until you do, you will continue to say "FMA empty hands is no good compared to other empty hand styles". There are thousands of people who train in FMA empty hands and have tested their skills in sparring/fighting. I don't know if you will find many people who train in FMA and never trained anything else, but good luck.

    Best wishes,

  3. BayaniWarrior

    BayaniWarrior New Member

    I agree, which is why in my full quote, I said "Fights mutate and change, and in lethal force scenarios (such as the situations Kali is designed for), empty hands truly are the last resort when dealing with a lethal threat. Less-than-Lethal weapons such as pepper spray and batons can be a good option but empty hands tend to be the bridge to get to them, particularly in close-quarters."


    I agree. There are a host of less-than-lethal tool options out there.

    Perhaps this is just where our training experiences differ. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but it's just from my experience that tools are always available. We simply need to train to draw and deploy them in a dynamic setting.

    Guro Mike Pana
    Chief Instructor
  4. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    "..FMA empty hands has been influenced by many empty hand arts and contains good elements from a number of systems. I have explained that I doubt that any FMA empty hands only practitioners exist and as a result you will not find an FMA empty hands vs Boxer/Muay Thai etc. Most FMA practitioners that I have met from PI trained in Karate or Boxing before FMA while growing up."

    thats my problem, its how well kali empty hands BY ITSELF can manage against other unarmed martial arts. However you technically just said that it can't due to the fact that kali empty hands needs to fill its gaps with foreign arts. My point is how good would a traditional fma empty hands be by itself against other striking arts, but you keep on telling me that all fma practioners have learned previous martial art expereince.

    Basically what I'm trying to get at is, you treating fma like an "add on art" and not a "martial art" or a complete system. You indirectly saying that fma empty hands or fma in general needs foreign arts to be effective, or else why would people like you need to take previous fighting systems. If you feel that fma is effective, why do you need to take other martial arts? Lots of of eskrimadors say that is a "complete system" so my mentality is to treat it like what its called which is why I question it in the first place. I question its effectivness because it feels the need to take other martial arts. Fighting systems like silat has little to no influence by other foreign systems, i mean honestly it really makes fma...not look like fma.
  5. Perry Coumas

    Perry Coumas New Member

    To clarify my point, I am not saying that FMA is an add on art. I am saying that very few people start their martial arts journey in FMA. Furthermore, I am also saying that FMA (especially empty hands) is contains aspects of many arts that existed before it, not unlike modern styles of most arts or arts that developed later in time like Krav. To my knowledge FMA has evolved over time with exposure to foreign fighting systems. To reiterate, FMA is not an add on art but one that contains aspects of other arts and very few people start their martial arts journey in FMA.

    I am not familiar enough with the history of Silat to comment about it.
  6. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    A fundamental misunderstanding exists in that the recognition is not being made that FMA in and of itself, contains many elements of Western Boxing. Boxing is huge in the PI, and has been for a very long time. As such, as FMA systems developed, aspects of Western Boxing were included in FMA systems, and vice versa. There are those who make the argument that the Filipino emphasis on limb destructions etc. has influence the manner in which Western Boxers hold their hands (keeping them close to their bodies versus extended) Guro Dan Inosanto makes some of these points in this video, very early on he states that FMA does not separate boxing from weaponry and vice-versa. He goes on to show basic boxing movements that are done by themselves or with the blade.


    the FMA have been weakened over the last 30 years by being taught by seminar and video tape. we have too many people who are "certified" to teach this arts who dont have the dominant skill they should have before leading any school. our tournaments do not have an element of pain to them and the only thing we have that does is the Dog brothers, which is a great tournament, but so many extreme, most FMA people will never do it. our FMA empty hand, for most of us, is nothing more than choreography. no matter how "real" you make it--boxing gloves, moving around, no patterns, etc., it is still not fighting. and we have every reason NOT to fight. tournaments/sparring has too many rules, it isnt dangerous enough, i'm saving for the street, most fights on the street is not a dual, etc. trust me as a kung fu teacher i hear enough of those bs, and its sad that the filipino arts is making them as well.

    if the empty hand of the FMA guy wants to grow and become respected so that at least our own practicioners will do them, we will need a few things:
    * rely on technique and strategy, not drills or choreography
    * learn to defend against REAL attacks, not this puff puff jabbing everybody does
    * become attack oreiented, not defense oriented. how many times did you ask a guy to show you his style, and then he goes "okay, feed me a jab, blah blah blah"? and really, he doesnt want you to REALLY hit him with the jab. he wants you to throw a slow technique and then hold it out
    * engage in contests of different kinds of rules
    * compare you art to unfamiliar, non FMA people and use what you discover to evolve what you do ("compare"=spar) and ("unfamiliar"=not your friends or seminar mates)
    * break away from your commitment to making your hands look like the stick which looks like the knife, blah blah blah
    * break away from seminar and distance learning and spent more time in the gym

    everything works. you just have to discover HOW they work, and stop looking for short cuts.
  8. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    the problem about your quote is that you need to cross train in order to do that. wouldn't it be best to just take silat, krav maga, wing chun, muay thai or kickboxing instead? I think fma empty hands would only work if your opponent had a weapon, other wise he get a beat down by fists if he assumed his assailant had a weapon. I think I somewhat speak for you when I say that the reason why you took kung fu is because your trying to compensate what fma lacks, which is defending one self against a fist
  9. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    you have to understand that the way martial arts evolve is some what different to how modern martial arts evolve. the way martial arts evolve such as muay thai was by fighting other opponents and constant fighting. muay thai has become its own thing, its a thailand martial art with little to no influence by bringing in foreign martial arts with there fighting system. The only influences that muay thai has is the ones that causes muay thai practioners to constantly fight against which leads to some development by learning from their enemy, where martial arts like bjj did not come from brazil, but came from japan and brazillians simply modified it, see the differences?

    let me give an example: you have stay which is a type of food originating from indonesia and you have mexican chorizo which actually originates in spain and not mexico. Although both of these foods evolve over time, satay is uniquely indigenous to indonesia and even the old way of cooking and marinating is used today where else mexican chorizo was never theirs to begin with and and was taken by spain to compensate what they don't have.

    thats how I'm staring to look at fma empty hands, i'm staring to believe its not fma to being with, but nothing more then modified karate or modified judo, which isn't fma to begin with. See my point?
  10. Cochise

    Cochise Member

    You keep talking about Karate, Silat, etc. Do you know how many Karate-styles there are? And many of them still show clear signs of their early influences of other martial arts. Many of them have a huge weapons curriculum, because sticks, staffs, sickles, etc. are a large part of their system. Would you say that is just an add-on to their empty hand training then?

    Silat is a rather general term like FMA, Arnis, Eskrima, Kali. There are many styles from different regions which can vary immensely; and a ton of people training silat today train in several of the different silat systems (buaya, kucing, cimande, cikalong, harimau, etc.). Oh, and most silat is by no means an empty hand martial art, there is extensive work with blades and impact weapons, as well as flexible weapons. Many empty hand moves are the same as or very similar to the moves with weapons.

    Japanes Koryu most of the time do not only have a lot of weapons training, but also much, much empty handed work which oftentimes appears very strange to people who only think in terms of the more widely known, popular arts. It is often predicated on the weapons work.

    Many, many FMA styles we still have around today have been influenced by European fencing and Western boxing for literally hundreds of years; plus Chinese, Japanese, and other arts have always had influences on many, many FMA. There is no such thing as a definitive "Kali empty hands". You can also rest assured that the Philippine cultures have always had some form of traditional wrestling like pretty much every culture on this planet. It is what it is, many different styles and training methods, fighting strategies, etc. Some very similar to each other, some very different from each other. Some with a lot of empty hand work, some with rather little to none. If you think there is nothing to be gained from it for you, leave it alone. Simple as that. FMA is so small in comparison to other martial arts that a lot of people still have little choice but to travel for hundreds of miles for classes or try to learn via seminars and DVDs, etc. which is by no means the best way to learn it, but not everyone has access to great instruction.

    Having said all of that, we only teach a handful of people, too, because that is the best way to do it in our estimation; but there is something to be said for the people who work hard to make the arts better known around the world, because the greatest FMA people of the future may not even have heard of it yet, because it is such a small part of sports in general and even of martial arts in particular.
  11. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    Well that is correct,which would mean that kali does not have anything exclusive to it,it all passed down throughout the history. Where else martial arts like pencak silat do.
  12. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    Most european fencing has influenced eskrima through warfare, not necessarily the way mma or jkd corporate it. The timawas, moros, maharlikas, datus, pintados and igorots learned from their enemy in order to counter those fencing methods. Adding a martial art with your own doesn't always work when facing another person, it might make you a little more knowledgeable but doesn't build you to attacking/defending against an conquistador.

    Look at indonesian silat, its not known for them having many outside influences, besides the martial arts by people of the same race and ethnicity such as chinese, but mixing silat and something like kung fu is called kuntao, not pencak silat. See where i'm going with this? I mean think about it, should we not be proud that eskrima is our own, considering its just a watered down version of other martial arts created by other countries like japan? jujutsu is mostly of japanese origin with very little evidence of influence of the outside
  13. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    ..karate didn't originate in japan, it originated from Ryukyu kingdom with some chinese martial arts to it, mostly indigenous ryukyu though. And thats what i'm afraid is happening, its that this so called fma (if it is even fma anymore) is not indigenous to my people. This might mean nothing to you probably because your not Filipino, but it means a lot to people like me who wish to preserve what makes fma unique. (limb destruction, attacking from weird angles such as the bolo punch, elbows etc) With out having to always rely on western boxing to save your ass
  14. Cochise

    Cochise Member

    I think the problem in this topic might be that the widely known and popular styles of FMA seen today are mostly modern styles that have been modified by many people. However, you can recognise these modifications as Filipino - since they were made by Filipino masters - in most cases, in my opinion. I don't think that the fact that they have been influenced by other arts makes Arnis and Eskrima less valuable or much less Filipino. I'm not sure what you are after, but it seems you are looking for a much older form of tribal FMA from centuries ago. That might be very hard, because, from what I've read, there are hardly any written records, none depending on how far back you want to go.

    As far as Pencak Silat is concerned, there are people who argue that it has its roots in India. I don't know, and I guess it is probably very difficult if not even impossible to really find out. The people who say it originates from ancient India might be completely wrong, too, who knows.
  15. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    I don't doubt that pencak silat probably came from india, or at least around there. Or maybe even influences but you have to realize that indians, filipinos, indonesians, and malaysians are similar people, I don't mind if eskrima draws from pencak silat, why don't i mind? Because indonesians and filipinos are nearly identical people, also the fact that pencak silat also draws from eskrima.....I'm no neccasarily looking for old tribal fma, some of that is found from the aeta and igorot tribe who did fold wrestling, which i heard is much like wrestling seen in hs and all over the world. But what i'm after is a martial art that is unique to filipino and no where else, or at least unique to our nationality. Pencak silat fighting style is unique to indonesians as muay thai is unique to thailand. I'm looking for something that is unique to filipinos ASIDE from the weapon aspect.

    Which is why i'm stressed on this empty hand stuff.

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