Kali empty hands vs other unarmed martial arts

Discussion in 'General' started by swordexperiment, Mar 24, 2014.

  1. Perry Coumas

    Perry Coumas New Member

    This is my first reply on this site and I tend to avoid posting because I think that most people who post, have an opinion and are unwilling to change it regardless of the points that I make. Since you have posted about this on both DBMA and Balintawak, I have decided to take the time to write a thoughtful response that I hope you will take the time to think about before responding by making the same point you have made repeatedly.

    In fighting and training, the way that we develop can be split into two categories: techniques and attributes. Some examples of techniques are the types of kicks, punches, and locks/holds that we become aware of and put into muscle memory. Attributes are more general talents like speed, timing, balance, power, and reaction time. It is important to note that everyone has different genetic predisposition for attributes so when comparing an FMA practitioner to a Boxer, assume that they start with the same level of athleticism and natural talent instead of me vs. Roy Jones Jr., because he would have whooped me with no training at all. There are a number of articles on techniques vs. attributes that explain the concept better than me and you can read up if you like.

    I do agree that the best way to get good at punching and defending punches is to box. You develop moves completely focused on punching and not getting punched. You will also (hopefully) develop attributes necessary to punch hard and fast and not get punched. At the same time, a pure focus on boxing will leave you unaware of other techniques like joint locks, throws, and kicks. All of which can also be used in an empty handed fight.

    Training with a weapon will not necessarily make you a great empty handed fighter. Not all FMA arts are taught well, so for the sake of this post, I am referring to those that are well taught and trained hard. Not all techniques transfer well from weapon to empty hand, but many do. The important thing to note is that training with a weapon will help you develop attributes that can make you tough to fight with or without a weapon. Weapons move faster than hands and as a result, the timing, reaction speed, and coordination that are developed by weapon training are often very impressive and can be an order of magnitude greater than training without a weapon. Whether or not you develop power in weapon training, often depends on the weapon trained. There is very little need to develop power with blades, but sticks require developing power.

    If an FMA practitioner develops attributes better than those of a practitioner of an empty handed art and trains in an FMA empty-hand curriculum to develop the empty-hand techniques (punches, kicks, locks) then it is quite possible that an FMA practitioner could beat a similar empty-hand art practitioner in an empty handed fight. As with all fights though, it will depend on who fights better that day, at that time, in that moment. If you have ever fought competitively then you know what I am talking about because in one punch or one lock, a better fighter can lose.

    I read the article that you linked in your prior post and I agree with a lot of what was said. Please understand that no art developed in a vacuum and FMA empty hands has aspects of other MA (karate, Jiu-Jitsu, Boxing, Judo, etc.) but those arts also drew from arts that existed before them. The important take away from the article is choose your FMA instruction wisely.

    I hope I have shed some light on how FMA can help with empty handed training. It develops attributes in case you missed the point. If you don't believe me, you have a few options to test my theory. You can find an FMA weapons practitioner that impresses you and train with him and see if your attributes get better. Another option is to find an experienced FMA practitioner or better yet a master and glove up. Another option is to train some boxing and go to a Gathering of the Pack DBMA and see how your training stacks up to someone who trains DBMA Kali-Tudo(TM). They encourage it. I hope that I have provided some insight as well as some options to aid you in your martial arts journey.

    Best wishes,

  2. jspeedy

    jspeedy Member

    I really don't want to waste any more time and energy explaining things to you, of you read my posts you'd know what i agree with. To my knowledge FMA hasn't entered the MMA scene as an empty hand stand alone art, you are right about that. Empty hand is not the specialty of most fma it's a by product. Surely you can't believe yourself when you said "kali seems to be the only art that can't hold itself in a cage match". There are hundreds of fighting systems that aren't used in mma, hundreds! Yet boxing and muay thai are the go to arts for mma striking. Mma has a formula that works by drawing upon systems that are already ring effective in a new ring sport mma.

    That is the advantage of sport systems, they have the benefit of refinement through organized combat. FMA is boxing, or there is evidence to suggest that some boxing techniques have come from FMA.
  3. michigankalisilat

    michigankalisilat New Member

    I think I speak for everyone here when I say that YOU ARE A TROLL

    If you don't think that FMA empty hand fighting is effective, then don't train it.

    No one here has anything to prove to you and trying to explain it via texts or videos is clearly useless.

    good luck with your Muay Thai and Western boxing. Maybe you'll win your next cage match. I just hope no one ever pulls a blade on you.

  4. BayaniWarrior

    BayaniWarrior New Member

    Quite frankly, I doubt you could speak for me. I don't know about you, but I'll always have access to something.

    Empty hands in real-life fights are always the last resort, or are the bridge to something better (pepper spray, blade, firearm, etc.)
  5. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

  6. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

    Not feeling this one either. I think you need to understand The Use-of-Force Continuum.
  7. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    and why not...... sorry to get off topic but your picture has kampilans on it..what do you know about those swords? besides the moros using them, do you know if any animist tribes like the tagalog, pintados used them? Or if it was used prior to islam in the Philippines?
  8. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    I"m not saying that all of kali empty hands is ineffective, just against another fist unless someone can explain how well it can hold itself against an unarmed martial art. i train in a place called club kali, it has empty hands but the instructors are open to admit that they have an mma backround which made me raise an eyebrow. Which is why I ask this question because it seems a lot of eskrimadores resort to other martial arts when it comes to empty hands. Look, you dont see a lot of people try to do fencing, krav maga or kendo to compensate kali, if anything its the other way around. They train kali to compensate other weapon martial arts because its just that good with weapons.

    I have no doubt the fma one of the best weapons martial art or if not, THE best weapons martial art when it comes to using bolos, knives, sticks, kalis etc Although it might be at a disadvantage against a spear or staff..point is my concern is how kali empty hands deals with other emtpy hand martial arts like silat, muay thai, karate etc
  9. BayaniWarrior

    BayaniWarrior New Member

    Mr. Hartman, I have studied the Use-of-Force Continuum thoroughly.

    However, I also know that real life fights don't always go according to a ladder. Fights mutate and change, and in lethal force scenarios (such as the situations Kali is designed for), empty hands truly are the last resort when dealing with a lethal threat. Less-than-Lethal weapons such as pepper spray and batons can be a good option but empty hands tend to be the bridge to get to them, particularly in close-quarters.

    Guro Mike Pana
    Chief Instructor
  10. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    yes, hundred of martial arts that is not used in a cage match...ALONE. Muay thai can do itself too well with out a wrestling, boxing, bjj backround. BUT it can stand by itself as striking art whether its against takewondo, silat, cambodian bloodsport, yaw yan etc Even shotakan or kyoshin karate can do good as a striking system against muay thai and etc. Hell I've seen some boxer knock that crap out of karate practioners. I also believe that ip man himself had some big trouble against a western boxer once. I think ip man one but not before the boxer beat the crap out of him. Not to sure about that, I read it somewhere but my concern is more on fma, not those other martial arts.

    "Mma has a formula that works by drawing upon systems that are already ring effective in a new ring sport mma."

    Yes, you have made a very very good point there.

    as for fma influencing boxing, I'm a bit skeptical on that, I would like to believe that. I mean the Filipnio "flash" created the bolo punch by imitating how he used the bolo machete/sword. But I need more evidence or research to state that as a pure fact. I'm sure there are elements of truth to it though.
  11. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

    And in non lethal force encounters? I think that we must use good judgement. We wouldn't want our students going to prison for stabbing unarmed assailants in non-lethal scenarios. Having grown up in a military and law enforcement family. I've been exposed to many different types of combat training as well as the different threat levels. We don't always have the opportunity to deploy weapons in the encounter or the need.

    Just saying....
  12. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    Tim hartman, eskrima from what i've have to concluded with is that it is nothing more than a weapons martial art, it in general doesn't stress a lot of empty hands unless your doing the modern systems we do today such as modern arnis which heavily copys from judo and karate.
  13. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

    So why don't you tell us how extensive your FMA background is before we go any farther?
  14. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    well I trained at a kali club for a couple of years, their empty hand fighting is mostly based off of mma systems. I have yet to face somone who has ever used nothing but kali empty hands in a fight against someone else who is trained in another unarmed combat art
  15. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    you make a good argument, but to state my conern for you to get a better understanding of where i'm coming from, I am curoius to know if you believe that traditional panantukan/ kali empty hands can hold its own its own compared to other martial arts such as muay thai, takewondo, karate, silat etc.

    I understand that it depends on the fighter but I'm focusing on what kali empty hand has to offer/ teach when it comes to being effective against people who who are weaponless. I know that "if you can dodge a stick, you can dodge a kick, if you can dodge a knife, you can dodge a punch" theory but what i'm waiting for is someone who has experienced using kali empty hands alone in a fight against another martial artist and how effective it was in those situations.
  16. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    I think the more appropriate question would be. "how does kali deal with an opponent when both you and your enemy are weaponless? "

    This can spark other questions deeper in the subject with out offending anyone such as dealing with a person who is as fast as a boxer, how do you deal with a fast jab from a boxer in a eskrima sense. Do you treat his fist as a knife and try to disarm him? how do you disarm whats no their?

    I think these are better questions
  17. Perry Coumas

    Perry Coumas New Member

    My response was based on the way your question was posed at the time I posted. I think the point I made is an important one and the attributes developed from serious weapons training should not be underestimated.

    It seems that what you are really looking for

    I do not think you will find someone who has just trained in FMA empty hands. I do not think that if that person exists that he/she sought out opponents from empty hand styles and tested his/her skills against their skills. I am certainly not the guy to answer this question. I have significant prior grappling experience and some boxing experience. What I can tell you is that I have become a much more formidable striker from my FMA training. My grappling has even grown from my FMA experience. Does everything that I have learned from FMA empty hands work? Not for me, but that is true with other arts as well.

    I think that there are FMA practitioners who are very apt at using FMA empty hands in a fight and can beat people trained in other arts. I have sparred with FMA guys who have hit hard and moved well. Many of them also trained in other arts. I don't know if there are any FMA guys who haven't trained in other arts and many FMA systems encompass other arts. My best advice to you is to find someone in an art whether FMA or Boxing or whatever, who you think will make you a better fighter and learn everything that you can from him. Also, be sure to test your stuff in sparring, to make sure it works.

    Best wishes,

  18. Perry Coumas

    Perry Coumas New Member

    This is a very broad question and the answer will vary from practitioner to practitioner and style to style. I would probably parry the jab and look to counter in a similar fashion to a boxer. As far as disarming him, you would not apply a weapon disarm when there is no weapon. One may apply a wrist lock though. Another option would be to parry the punch into a hard bone like the elbow in hopes of injuring the attacking hand and "disarming" the opponent. This option would probably not work with gloves on.
  19. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    You see this is why I still doubt Kali empty hands, it's because practitioner like you feel that Kali empty hands needs more Influence to the arts because it can't stand on its own. So let me ask, what IS Kali empty hands? Because it sure as hell doesn't have very effective striking compared to other arts like muay Thai, it does. Have very good grappling compare to wrestling. The only thing I can think of is the disarms which silat surpasses is because it has a lot of focus on empty hands.

    I stand correct with my facts when I say that fma is nothing more tan Asian version of African stick and knife fighting
  20. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

    I disagree with that. I'm currently training two FMA systems (Kuntaw & Sikaran). Both are open hand systems.

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