Kali empty hands vs other unarmed martial arts

Discussion in 'General' started by swordexperiment, Mar 24, 2014.

  1. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    How is the kali empty hands versus other unarmed martial arts like muay thai, silat or karate? I always assumed kali/eskrima is more of a fencing art rather than a weapon and empty hand fighting art. I used to believe that with out the stick or knife, the eskrimador is hopeless.
     
  2. jspeedy

    jspeedy Member

    I try to keep a realistic approach to my training. I look to establish evidence for all of my thoughts when possible. For example, when it comes to empty hand arts like boxing and muay thai their effectiveness has been proven for us all to witness in the ring and their is ample evidence that it is equally effective on the street. Some in the FMA and RBSD community are quick to point out that boxing and muay thai are sports, as such they imply a lack of effectiveness for the street. This is an ignorant statement, a ring fighter has proven his or her ability to apply their technique to a fully resisting opponent of skill and athleticism. However, the non sport street fighters may not have applied their craft to resisting opponents. Their are plenty of non sport martial artists who train with the same ferocity as sport competitors. My point, sport fighters are often better conditioned for the reality of a fully resisting street fight than the more common compliant training by the average schools that criticize them.

    Went off on a tangent there, just trying to frame my argument for FMA empty hands and give you an idea of where I come from. So, if you're in the camp that finds kickboxing and MMA brutal, pointless, and unrealistic, just stop reading. That said I think FMA empty hands depend on the approach to training. FMA specializes in weapons, as such the empty hand we garner from FMA often plays out with a mindset that the opponent could have an unseen weapon or draw one at any time. The fact that an opponent has a weapon alters the nature of the conflict. Boxing and muay thai represent some of the most sophisticated empty hands there are, so I'd hesitate to drop a blanket statement saying FMA empty hands are better. Kick boxers and boxers are specialists just as we are with weapons, it's hard to imagine anyone could beat us at our own game without the same specialized training. A simple boxing cover may not be practical if the enemy has a knife or may have a knife, the strategy will be somewhat different. So things that may be practical in an empty hands only environment aren't if there can be a weapon. What i'm saying is FMA empty hands might not be the most practical thing for established empty hand combat but perhaps FMA empty hand is best in any other scenario where a weapon may be produced.

    That being said the majority of FMA empty hand videos I see are more of technical demos. They consist of compliant drills and are executed in a very "flowy" fashion. But like I said they are demos where the purpose is to demonstrate technique not necessarily application. Panantukan seems to be the flavor of the month lately but I have yet to see a boxing match where fighters are using anything resembling what I see in the demos. I'm sure someone will post some good videos to prove me wrong.
     
  3. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    I'm more concerned about kali empty hands versus unarmed martial arts. I'm not talking about a weapon scenario because I know kali can take care of itself pretty well in those situations, but I feel if you know filipino martial arts like kali or eskrima, it will get you killed in a empty hand scenario. I"m even starting to think that krav maga supergrasses us on that. I'm afraid I might be right when I say that an eskrimador would probably **** his pants if he fights someone with out a weapon and facing an opponent with out one who has some skilled background in unarmed combat. As I said, ..."give me a 1000 boxers and I can take over the Philippines"

    unless you can prove me wrong on this
     
  4. jspeedy

    jspeedy Member

    It's hard to group kali empty hands into one group. There are hundreds of Filipino systems, each with their own specialty, including empty hand and grappling. Good luck taking over the PI with boxers, that statement reaks of ignorance. So much so that I'm not even gonna address the logical fallacies. I'm not sure how you think empty hand kali would get you killed, head trauma? Broken bones? It depends on how you train. I think most fma empty hand will have you better prepared for empty.hand than many karate and traditional or classical style schools. Krav is no magic bullet, it's the same combative approach every system has from modern versions of Japanese jujutsu, to jkd, to Gracie combatives and even fma empty hand. The only difference is the other systems have more than just combatives training. There are no short cuts, no quick easy was to beat multiple attackers, street thugs, and martial arts masters.
     
  5. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member

    Your 1,000 boxers would get shot. People fight with guns in the Philippines nowadays. The days of Cebuanos battling Moro pirates with bolos are long gone. Welcome to the 21st century.

    Is there a point to this "debate" aside from juvenile "who would win a fight between..." questions?
     
  6. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    My point, is how effective kali can stand by itself as a empty hand striking art compared to other striking arts like karate, muay thai, boxing etc
     
  7. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    but krav maga does have extensive practice with empty hands than kali when it comes to weapon and no weapon defense. So it probably surpassed kali in terms in empty hand where else kali from what i've speculate is only good with a weapon. So I stand correct when I say that fma is noting more than a fencing art like kendo or european fencing
     
  8. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    As I said before "an eskrimador would probably **** his pants if he fights someone with out a weapon and facing an opponent with out one who has some skilled background in unarmed combat. "
     
  9. jspeedy

    jspeedy Member

    Can you read? As i said kali consists of hundreds of independent fighting systems, you can't group them all as one. Let me make my thoughts clear. Kali,eskrima, arnis, whatever sets you up for empty hand, if you can defend a knife you can defend a punch. Do i believe an eskrimadore can walk into a boxing ring and take a championship title? Probably not without some specialized training. As for boxing an the PI there is evidence to suggest a heavy filipino influence on the modern version of the sport. To suggest Kali is useless without a weapon shows a lack of understanding of the art. I could just as easily say muay thai is useless with a weapon, but it's not true. The MT fighter will adapt his empty hand skills in the event of a weapon, just like the kali man will adapt his skills to empty hand. Neither fighter will just through up his arms and die because they don't have training to deal with a specific threat. You would probably **** you pants in any confrontation. So don't come too an FMA forum and talk **** of you're not willing to have an open mind.
     
  10. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member

    This is the Balintawak section of the forum and Balintawak is a weapon-based system. If you want to discuss empty-handed FMA vs. the World, the General forum is a better place to do so. Or, go talk to the folks in the Sikaran forum. There are several other FMA's that have an empty handed or dumog component.
     
  11. BayaniWarrior

    BayaniWarrior New Member

    Here's a video of myself discussing the context of Filipino Kali empty hands. Kali empty hands does work, but in a very specific context.

    [video=youtube;LhO4BC7NyhQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhO4BC7NyhQ[/video]

    Respectfully,
    Guro Mike Pana
    Chief Instructor
    www.bayaniwarrior.com
     
  12. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    I've seen this video before


    here are things I dislike and like from what you give about kali empty hands:

    first off, your method of empty hands rely to much on weapons, in which case there's going to be a time where you won't have access to one. Another thing is that it relies in to many eye grougs which any martial art can do, including Muay Thai, so I don't see what's so special about kali empty hands. My point is if kali empty hands can hold itself against a trained unarmed fighter, kali seems to be the only martial art that can't hold itself in a cage match, and don't give that bs excuse that its a street fight, silat was able to hold its own against a Muay Thai practitioner, why can't kali?



    so I stand correct when I say that fma/kali/eskrima is a fencing art like kendo.
     
  13. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    I always thought that balintawak was to exchange ones empty hand skills and trains it.
     
  14. BayaniWarrior

    BayaniWarrior New Member

    I am not sure where you are coming from, but if you are a Kali practitioner, then you ALWAYS have access to weapons.



    I am not sure what FMA Empty hands you've trained in, but Eye Gouges are just a part of the curriculum most FMA styles teach. Eye Jabs, Ear Slaps, as well as kicks, hammerfists, elbows, knees, headbutts and takedowns are all part of a good FMA curriculum. The difference between FMA empty hands and Muay Thai is that FMA focuses on dealing with the blade, as I mentioned in the video.



    Because Kali wasn't created in cages. It was created on battlefields where swords, projectiles, and firearms were the proving ground. Muay Thai is an excellent art, and I've trained in it myself, but comparing Muay Thai to FMA empty hands is taking FMA empty hands out of the context and environment it was originally designed in.



    Kendo is a Japanese combat sport derived from ancient Japanese Kenjutsu, the Japanese art of swordsmanship. It is practiced as a competitive sport in Japan as well as all over the world.

    Kali, however, is a battlefield art that has adjusted to modern times. It has been practiced as sport, but it's always been trained as a sport within the last forty to fifty years. It is, and always will be (and should be) an art designed to protect one's family and land.

    Respectfully,
    Guro Mike Pana
    Chief Instructor
    www.bayaniwarrior.com
     
  15. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    There's going to be a time where you won't have access to a weapon, but that's not the point right now. My argument is that kali empty hands only work if you GIVE the other person a weapon. Kali is a fencing art, relies so much in sticks that when someone comes in with nothing but there hands, the eskrimador wouldn't know what to do. I feel fma is more of an add in art rather than a martial art, it was meant to supplement other arts that will get the job done better such as Silat, which is a martial art light years ahead of ours.

    As I said before, if the Philippines were to use nothing but fist, give me 1000 boxers and I can take over the Philippines.
     
  16. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    Also, yaw yan is a martial art based off if Muay Thai and its doing better empty hands then eskrima or kali.. I wonder why. Same goes for pencil silat. It's ok to take fma as a fencing art, but nothing more, so please don't influence people to take fma other than fencing with a stick and knife
     
  17. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

  18. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member

    No, you don't.
     
  19. jspeedy

    jspeedy Member

    Not sure if that's your blog you linked, but it makes some fair points, can't say i agree with everything but i do share similar thoughts on some issues. Here you just come off as an ignorant forum troll, but if that's your blog maybe you do have some thoughts worth hearing.
     
  20. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    What thoughts do you agree with?
     

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