Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by truth_be_told, May 9, 2007.
No worries. It is easy to make that kind of mistake when you cannot see someone in person
Having spent many decades in the wierd and wacky world that is martial arts, I have to say that whenever the word "pure" enters the conversation "I reach for my revolver." I don't even waste time listening to those who would give me a scathing lecture on the "purity" or "non-purity" of any fighting "art," combative "sport," or self defense system.
Take my advice and study whatever piques your interest for whatever reason. It will become obvious over time that some combative training methods are designed for real world survival, and some are designed for a myriad of other reasons including physical fitness, psychological fortitude "re-alignment," etc., etc.
If you really want to get to know the differences between the rainbow cornucopia of martial arts out there to study, I suggest spending a short stint in the military, befriending those who have seen and survived "fire and rain," and continually seek out those who will keep you on that winding path. Of course, if you are just in it for the exercise and the history and the tradition and the banter and the bull and the comaraderie, any style or system will serve you well.
In my humble opinion, most of the people involved in most martial arts are being conned and scammed in terms of "reality based" functional training. And amazingly, some people who actually train in extremely functional martial arts systems never develop the "killer instincts" that would allow them to really use what they learn when the chips are down. However, after many years of watching this phenomenon I have come to the conclusion that most martial artists are getting precisely what they want in some perverse way. There are lots of people in every style or system that are not warriors, but rather wimps! Nothing wrong with being a wimp or a geek...you can always hire a warrior to protect you if you have a good job.
But, whatever you do, learn early on to be wary of anyone who wants to clue in to "purity" or "truth." In essence; believe little of what you hear, and only a bit more of what you see in this world. Learn, play, evolve, and develop highly refined personal experience over time. Then you are on the right path.
I like dressing with my salad too...don't forget yer greens lads.
Well said. I look forward to reading more of your future posts.
going to a seminar to see a bigger picture of PTK, BS. you have to go to the source. all you get from seminars are seminar material, im not saying that seminars are bad, its fun. in MY OPINION you dont get alot from it cause its fast, no time for materials to sink in, for me seminar is not real training, its taking notes time.
as tuhon gaje would say "slow is smooth and smooth is fast"
well seminar is fast.
but that's just me
Not all humans have noses either...(not all boxers wear gloves, etc) Boxers tend to break their hands alot when not wearing gloves if you watch the news...
If aikido was not invented by a swordsman, it was invented by someone who learned techniques invented by swordsmen. Pretty close to same thing to a big picture guy like me.
"aikido derives much of its technical structure from the art of swordsmanship (kenjutsu)."
Jeet Kune Do was heavily influenced by (Western) fencing.
There are still bare knuckle boxers out there who don't have problems getting their knuckles busted. There are boxers out there who know how to execute the cross buttock throw. There also boxers who still do lots of elbow wrenches. Don't put a blanket statement over boxing and put it down because it is ring sport and not a "deadly art".
Your information on aikido is also inaccurate. Please do some more research before putting blanket statements on different martial arts. I'm surprised that you don't know more about different styles since your website is called compare styles.
I can't stand 'know it all's' quoting stuff they heard from somewhere else...
purity = sterility
we're all as different from each other as chalk 'n cheese & the sooner that is appreciated the better off we'll all be!
The fact that we have to hand such an excellent 'training method' & this from the recent past, is what ought be focused upon ~
bringing us to self-realization & beyond...
yet some folk's is happy to wallow in history, mystery & prophe$$$y.
Take off your white socks & racquet ball safety glasses - think culture!
big picture guy...
If an art truly is great, then it can stand on its own as being truly great without denigrating other arts or stylists to prove the point.
I provided documentation on one of my statements that was contested, and was told again that my info was incorrect, I provided some documentation, no one else did.
I was called a "know it all" and again my generalizations about for example boxing, were simply responded to by saying that there are some "exceptions" to my generalizations.
Like people who say "You can't generalize"... well you can and in general it it true.
I really don't think that anyone has responded in in intelligent manner to my posts.
Cross training didn't work for me.
What arts did I denigrate? Is it denegration to say that modern foil fencing has lost much of it's combat application in becoming a sport? Anyone deny that? Anyone deny that as soon as there are rules, that you exploit the rules? That sports teach bad habits because of these rules? Would boxers instinctive go to the clinch if other techniques were permitted?
If my fact on aikido quoted are wrong, I guess you guys can please update wikipedia to have the correct info.
I think you are just hacked off since I don't believe in cross training or don't believe that pekiti tirsia is what Tuhon says it is.
I guess you guys train in so many arts that whatever art I mention you take it personally.
Western fencing.. maybe there are a few that still have the old info, if so those ARMA guys are wasting their time researching old books. We have a living book, but you pay no attention to the living book.
This is a pekiti tirsia discussion area by the way so I can't say it is great here and compare it to other styles?
Is being called a sport denegration? Or is it what it is?
Everyone who is so offended by my comments on purity and cross training may want to ask a question of their pekiti tirsia instructor and Grand Tuhon himself.. please post their responses here.
I have come to believe what I am told by my elders/teachers in the PT system. Not because I believe anything they tell me, but because I have seen for myself it is true. Some of it took time. For about 2 years I did both pekiti tirsia and wing chun at the same time, training 2-3 times per week in each. I was told I should quit wing chun since it was impeding my progress. I resisted for awhile, when I finally was convinced, I improved my Pekit dramatically. Jim of the southlake PT school said I was the one who had had the most dramatic improvement in my skills. That was after I trained solely Pekiti Tirsia. I didn't want to give up wing chun since I was already a fair way through the system, and would also have to abandon students that I was teaching at the time. That was sad for me and for them.. some of them no longer train in wing chun at all and none train in Pekiti Tirsia.
We are all different, this is my truth. I am sticking with what I said.
Let first set things straight with you. I'm a true loyal Pekiti Tirsia student. I do believe that PTK is a thoroughbred martial arts. It's the most true complete system and purely Pilipino martial art that I've seen. It's a work of genius. I believe that Pekiti Tirsia is what Tuhon says it is.
You are filled with enthusiasm, but lack education when talking about the martial arts in general. A Pekiti Tirsia man is an educated man. He can prove his authority by words or by action.
It will take a lot of writing to educate you on what you don't know and correct your misconceptions. It's best that you go and research the material yourself. It's not crosstraining it's comparative analysis.
That's ridiculous. Read some of this, few of my thoughts are unique to me. You have to argue with lots of people if you argue with what I say and I have documetation.(I typed out alot but then lost my work I was taking so long)
Secrets of the Samurai, Ratti and Westbrook
yes aikido did come from sword technique, watered down or expanded, to integrate the human personality or whatever.
Judo had some of the combat techniques taken out since they were too specialized to help with all the spiritual goals.
Martial Arts Talk, interview with Hunter Thompson
boxing has been evolving for sport for over 100 years, karate was never created nor had anything to do with combat once removed from okinawa. Most arts have already evolved toward sport.
The Secret History of the Sword, Christoph Amberger
Talks about how both technique and weapons changed over time, first for first blood duels and then for sport.
"This way the opponent cannot be injured.."
Quote from my interview with Tuhon Gaje:
"What do you think about the mixed martial arts?
Mixed Martial arts is a fad today. They mix because they want to learn how to respond to certain techniques. I want to learn too, I cannot blame these people. But if you mix your martial arts, you have a tendency to develop bad habits. Bad habit because what they give in one martial art may not be workable in another martial art.
Why do you want to mix?
We follow the angles of attack; once you fall into the perimeter of the line of defense, whatever comes in we have to destroy. So why do you want to mix? If the system is equipped with combat technology, you have no reason to mix.
Many times the person that trains them has no concept of what combat is, he only has limited knowledge, or he is out there for sports and to make a living teaching.
How long will you master each mix?
When you mix in ingredients, you have to know the elements of what you are mixing in.
I'll give you an example about mixing, you eat Thai food, American food, Mexican food, Filipino food, kosher food; your stomach will be fighting all night. Sometimes you can mix things that are not compatible.
So the same thing with the mixed martial arts, if someone pulls a knife you don’t know which martial art you are going to use. You hesitate; you can’t decide which technique to use.
Rolling stones gather no moss. Mixing is not a very sophisticated thing to do. You collect another bad habit here; you collect other bad habits there. All the bad habits put together is what you end up with.
I experience this in my seminars, I have mixed martial artists there, you tell them to relax and they tense up. From hard empty hands to weaponry is a very hard thing, they contradict.
Yin and yang, you have to learn how to be soft and when to be hard. One problem is that many teachers do not have sufficient experience in combat.
There is a big movement to mixed martial arts.. .it is ok...What is your common denominator, what is your target?
You have to be accurate and you have to be precise, any mistake you commit during an encounter is a big problem. The game is lost.
If you are a soldier you have to accurate and precise. The same for a painter, sculptor, and carpenter. If you are making a doorknob it must fit in the door. Everything must be accurate and precise."
I've had a similar a similar conversation with Tuhon. He said something to the effect that mixing styles is like going into a buffet line and all you get in the end is indigestion.
You have to read what he is saying, Jason.
"What is your common denominator."
"We follow the angles of attack; once you fall into the perimeter of the line of defense, whatever comes in we have to destroy."
He is talking about principles. Principles don't change. Methods and expressions change. Principles are the least common denominator. In this case Tuhon used the angles of attack as an example. That's one of the common denominator.
In mixed martial arts, what they commonly mix are methods and expressions instead of working on a set of principles. I think this where you have your difficulty. A popular type of mixing would be Muay Thai striking and BJJ ground work. Another popular type of mixing is western boxing and catch wrestling. Of course there are are lots of other mixes in between. Not that some of these mixes don't have set of principles, of course they do, but they're geared towards empty hand fighting and not integrated towards weapons use.
Mix martial arts deal mainly with empty hand fighting. But, they have to deal common strategic problems weapon based fighting arts face.
1. Getting the range
2. Bridging to the safe angle
3. Controlling the close quarters
They solve these problems by mixing strategies from different arts. What I believe Tuhon was saying is that there's no need to mix strategies from different arts IF you understand principles of weapon use. Ranging, bridging and close quarters are more difficult with a weapon, especially with a bladed weapon.
Now depending on your main "mix" (your base ingredient) different expressions/styles emerge.
Can Pekiti Tirsia compete in this arena? I say absolutely. Do you have to mix anything in? Do we need to add BJJ or some kind of grappling to Pekiti? No. It's alredy there. Do we need to add strikes from muay thai? No. I spar with a lot of MMA types. I use Pekiti Tirsia Kali.
I've trained in other styles. I grew up in the Philippines. I understand that real fighting is about the use of weapons. Everything else is just a game or something you can walk away from.
How do you know that you can do with a weapon what you think you can do? You have to spar, don't you? That's a game with rules and if and when we start counting points it becomes a sport.
Do you spar? Yes, I believe you do. You play the game. We don't call it a sport because we don't keep scores and we don't award medals for points. We do it to hone a skill.
What's the sport of MMA? It's a game played inside a cage or a ring with rules. They keep score and they get paid for winning.
The fundamental problems are the same: Range-Bridge-Close Quarters. That's just one example. Why can't you learn from that?
Ueshiba training with bokken at about 5:00. Ueshiba trained in classical bujutsu weaponry. However, it is generally thought that his expertise with the spear (not the sword), is fundamental to the genesis of Aikido. There is also an argument that time spent in Manchuria was also instumental to the development of his art.
Absolutely true. Unfortunately men tend to like to boast!
Separate names with a comma.