Is Pekiti Tirsia a Pure / Thoroughbred FMA?

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by truth_be_told, May 9, 2007.

  1. PeteNerd

    PeteNerd Member

    Just so everyone knows... I agree with Eddie here. Check out PTK, go to a seminar with Tuhon. If it's not for you, it's not for you. The system and principles have been around for years. The Doce Methodos hasn't changed. It works as a whole system, not like a hodge podge of different techniques.

    Pete
     
  2. Carol

    Carol <font color = blue><b>Technical Administrator</b><

    *shrug* We could replace the Pekiti-Tirsia section with a locked sticky post that simply said "Go to a Seminar" ... but that would make this place rather boring. ;)
     
  3. puntadas

    puntadas New Member

    that's a great idea & then all the 'massage therapists' (I mean martial artists) could circumvent reality & continue playing with sticks & gi's & their dull friends too...
     
  4. equilibrium

    equilibrium New Member

    PTK is not mixed

    summary of what I've heard from Tuhon Gaje

    1. his art is pure and not mixed
    2. there isn't a need to mix in other arts and in fact can create problems, what he calls bad habits.. and if you did mix, you have to be a master to be able to mix in things correctly to not create problems(most people mixing think they are masters but are not)
    3. PTK is focused on the blade, some of the other arts people try and mix were not focused on the blade, so they do things that get you killed when a blade is involved. Many of the arts mixed in are sport versions of older arts. If that isn't a backwards @ss*d way to do things....I don't know what is.

    In my opinion it is an insult to the art to try and strap on other arts to it.

    I'd also say there is a big difference in the purpose and intent between cross training and competive analysis. It can look the same on the outside, but what is going on inside is something different.

    Too many people are trying to fix something that isn't broken.

    Like one guy said, "I'm here in the phillipines and most arts are mixed in the japanese arts, etc." Just shows PTK is better since it never got screwed up by the mixers.

    Presas probably mixed in stuff/changed the art for marketing and sport reasons(from other posts on this bulletin board)... good reasons for what he had in mind, but not compatible with the PTK purpose--- survival.

    PTK is about survival not sports, not modern anything. Nothing has changed, a thrust is still a thrust, a slash still a slash. No need to change or mix in anything.
     
  5. Twist

    Twist Junior Member

    Well.. GT Gaje did train some of those styles in his younger years..
     
  6. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I think every significant FMA instructor I know of has trained in multiple styles at some point!
     
  7. Wayuk-Oyaak

    Wayuk-Oyaak New Member

    Hello fellow FMA-ers!

    I have been a long time lurker in this forum and my first time here as a member. Hopefully, I can share good values to all the members here in FMA Talk.

    Let's get back to the topic...

    In some point there are advantages in having one or few styles in your sleeve but there are also disadvantages - one is identity of your main style. I truly believe that Tuhon's points are valid. I have been with several styles not just FMA but KMA and JMA as well but the proponents of a single system is not a deadend. In the first place, there was no mixing of styles and yet the warriors of the past proved to be more deadly and effective to their warrior life. since we have been living in the 21st century, some of us now have few martial arts studies. If one truly believes in his system as effective, we can only agree to that because bluntly speaking... loyalty is one of our virtues.

    p.s. sorry that my english is not as good as anyone can understand... salamat.
     
  8. Carol

    Carol <font color = blue><b>Technical Administrator</b><

    Your English is excellent Wayuk-Oyaak. Welcome to FMAtalk!
     
  9. Hi there everyone,

    This is just my honest opionion. it is good to train in other systems, be it FMA and/or non-FMA systems as no art has a monopoly in killing/defending... history teaches us that every nation/tribe fought some time in their history.. some were obliterated from the face of the earth and some like the Sumerian Empire, Egyptians, Spartans, Macedonian, Roman Empire, Mongolian, Chinese & Japanese Dynasties etc have conquered vast lands for thousands of years all using their own methods which produced the same results; there are only so many ways to hurt someone else... Those cultures that prevailed have proved themselves as have the FMA in WW2 to a more specific event.

    (a tangent: this gets me thinking: what if the Americans and modern guns weren’t there to help the Philippines fight the Japanese in WWII… what would happen to the FMAs in particular?)

    Back to the subject on hand: A punch is a punch, kick is a kick, thrust/cut is a thrust/cut in every part of the world... some are more efficient and some not in punching, kicking, and in weapon fighting, yet we are all human so we all know how to kill humans... we all have two arms, two legs, a head (well most of us )… the physiology and biomechanics are essentially the same... most criminals have no offical training in killing, but have the aggressive intent and will to do so...

    time/culture/philosophy/religion has watered us from our basic instincts today and most of the 6.5 Billion people don't know how to fight... and now people (martial artists) claim to exclusively have the complete picture of effective killing/defending... they disregard other culture's histories... this in turn gives certain martial art systems a claim as being the BEST… I believe

    yes, loyalty is a great virtue… HOWEVER, if someone is coming to kill me and my family, I will use any means necessary to defend my family—be it FMA, MMA, GUNS and God knows what else----SURVIVING IS THE GREATEST NEED and takes precedence over Virtue.

    I believe the question or point i'm trying to address is the need to claim to be the best, most "pure art." other than making money, what's the point? (money to survive eh?)

    hear from all of you soon!

    Capt.
     
  10. Carol

    Carol <font color = blue><b>Technical Administrator</b><

    I guess something that bugs me about these kinds of statement is, in my mind Pekiti-Tirsia is a great art...and I'm sure many of you folks feel the same way. In some of the more (ahem) firey discussions, I don't think there was anyone trying to make the point that PTK stinks. Tuhon Gaje is a phenomenal talent.

    Personally I think Jason makes a fair point when he says
    I can totally get behind the reasoning.

    However statments like "purest" and "most indigenous" just strike me as being congecture. It leaves me wondering...with an art as great as PTK, with so much substance and so much history, why use an arguable statement to illustrate the art instead of a substantiated description?
     
  11. Twist

    Twist Junior Member

    Thats what I dont understand either... With such a nice art, theres no need to "advertise" that way.
     
  12. equilibrium

    equilibrium New Member

    Captain

    Mmmm. I can't help but think the argument is off. He said "All cultures know killing so who is anyone to say they do it best...?" (paraphrased)

    I want to make this point clear that is obvious...Most cultures KNEW killing but the arts that were effective combative techniques were lost as you say, due to various factors...but the martial artists are among the people who lost the effective technique. They turned jiu-jitsu into Ju-do, kenjitsu into ken-do. And a swordsman invented something called Aikido...

    As time passes, what was once a great martial arts system gets turned into a sport and LOSES IT'S ORIGINAL EFFECTIVENESS.

    The Europeans, we had, amoung other real fighting skills worthy of defending your family, swordmanship, right? What do we have now, the sports of boxing, wrestling, and fencing? The bladed skills went out the window big time. It is just all about sports man. Heck, boxers wear big pillows on their hands and act like the can't use any other part of their body except their hands, wrestlers strive to pin the guy on his back(hands free or not), and the fencing is done in straight lanes where the first one to touch the other guy with his little fairy wand wins the big medal. Did we lose something here?

    Wasn't Judo invented as a sport.. taking out the moves that might get someone hurt. Wouldn't want to do that.. oh no.. Isn't the foil and boxing gloves and the rules for ultimate fighting all about not being effective? If you are effective it kills the sport.

    So if there is any money to be made, you should
    1. teach kids
    2. hold tournaments with rules enough to make everyone feel safe or keep the law off your behind.
    3. Teach multiple arts since you get more students overall, touch on more market segments
    4. maybe throw in some mystical harmony philosophy and teach wimps discipline and self respect. They won't be able to save themselves, but they might feel powerfull at least.

    And if you haven't noticed Pekiti Tirsia ain't making alot of money. Oh yeah, all those pekiti tirsia guys driving around in BMWs oh yeah...right!

    So no, it doesn't make sense to study a bunch of arts since so many have been made lame through time. The people got soft and so did the martial arts!

    So... if we could study one of the other arts of one of the many cultures on earth that have been fierce warriors, yeah, you know what? It might be as good or EVEN BETTER than pekiti.. but most of those arts died out in their pure form. We value pekiti since it wasn't invented to nullify the empty handed kung fu style of the other clan, nor did it evolve to be a sport, nor to be politically correct or add in japanese stuff to attract the guys involved in japanese arts. No! We value it because it is the real deal.. This is hard liquor and not watered down.. This is the PURE stuff and it doesn't need anything added or subtracted. It needs to be preserved like something authentic in a museum. Oh look the real crown worn by a king in the 5th century BC, why don't we take it and add in some $2 rhinestones...we'll fix it..

    Most the the "martial arts" we are stuck with today are about as similar to real combative systems as bear claws are to our modern day fingernails are. They are good for scratching your butt but not the defenders of the cave that they were.

    Heck, even thai kickboxing.. wasn't the real art krabi krabong or something like that.. But heck who wants the real deal when they can sweat and kick pads and fight in the ring with one guy, a ref and a bunch of rules? Who wants to wield a real weapon anyway? You might hurt somebody for real... Where's the fun in that? WWF, now that is fun and they swear it's real...

    In summary, we don't think the filipinos have the best anything nor the corner on the fighting arts. What we do think is that effective combative systems lose their effectiveness over time and are changed to other purposes. We also believe that pekiti tirsia is an art that is still an original, pure combative system that has not been watered down or sportized or otherwise jacked up.

    Let's keep it that way. If I try and mix pekiti with judo than my grandchildren will learn a system that is probably pretty screwed up.
     
  13. Wayuk-Oyaak

    Wayuk-Oyaak New Member

    Sir, thanks for acknowledging me to this forum. My only argument to this question is that PTK is getting to the point that when Tuhon sees it… PTK is going to the wrong track. What I mean to say is, many FMA styles are engaged in sports… watered down and diluted and little training here and there and some instructors claim it a legit methods of training. We can all understand that any masters or great grandmasters will always try to make the art at its purest form not just a branch of his family art. In this case, Tuhon Gaje will try to emphasize that PTK is not diluted or watered down art. His only proof is that PTK will never be another profit-making source.

    Hello Twist, what I see on Tuhon's point of view is/are not some sort of advertising. It is a fact that most (or maybe maority) of FMA now is "selling" out of simple techniques not a source of learning.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2007
  14. RRodriguez

    RRodriguez New Member

    Sports or Combat

    The art is only as effective as the practitioner. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with FMA used as a sports competition. To me, it's just another training session. What's important is that the practitioner recognizes the DIFFERENCES between what works on a sports competition (with protective gear) and what works on real life-threatening situations. Bruce Lee used to say, "you react the way you train".
     
  15. Ventura

    Ventura -== Banned ==-

    Judo wasn't invented as a sport.

    Aikido wasn't invented by a swordsman.

    Not all European fencing/swordsmanship is done on a strip with a foil.

    Not all boxing are done with gloves and they don't just punch.

    Not all wrestling are won with a pin or a throw.

    Ju Jutsu is not different from Judo (technically), they differ philosophically.

    Ken Jutsu is not different from Kendo (technically), they differ philosophically.

    Muay Thai ring fighting is not Muay Thai the traditional art. There are certain things more effective in the ring strategically when you play for points.

    You don't need to mix anything with Pekiti Tirsia Kali. I feel that it's perfect the way it is. It is the most complete and true martial system that I have seen.

    However, it is important to get facts straight about other martial arts. How are you going to counter something you don't know?

    Pekiti Tirsia solves all problems against other martial arts. It is thoroughly developed. It is perfect!

    However, you and you alone can stand to face other style. Your teacher or any of his ancestors won't save you. Not even the genius of the Pekiti Tirsia system can save you.

    You have to be as educated as possible. Being educated doesn't mean you have to mix anything. In fact being educated in the different styles will show you how brilliant the Pekiti Tirsia system is.

    Sports and games are good. The most deadly men are the softest men. They can decide how much or how little damage they want to inflict. The hard men, those who think they're too deadly are not deadly at all. They live in a fantasy world.

    Can you beat Judo guy at their own game and make them look stupid without using brute force? Can you out box a boxer and have them wonder at your footwork and ability to hit? Can you face a fencing champion with your rattan and touch them without getting touched?

    The standard for myself as a Pekiti Tirsia student is this: I can play everyone's game, but they can never play my game.
     
  16. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    There are a few systems out of the Philippines that aren't going the route for sports.. I practice a couple that are from the Pampanga region of central luzon and we are still strictly oriented toward the way it was taught to me by my instructors and I still keep my students geared toward that goal.. we do maintain the dakap diwa (warrior mindset ) of the Macebebe warriors of central luzon and although we are mere students of these systems, I feel that our instructors would be proud of the way we are keeping the systems alive and growing..

    Bill
    Defensive Tactics
    Guam
     
  17. Carol

    Carol <font color = blue><b>Technical Administrator</b><


    Now that I can follow. Thanks for sharing that! :)

    Just please don't call me sir if you don't mind, I'm a woman. ;) I'm not much for titles...Carol is fine.
     
  18. Carol

    Carol <font color = blue><b>Technical Administrator</b><

    That actually touches on a couple subjects that I feel very strongly about. One is the watering down of martial arts, the other is business.

    There is a strong sentiment here for not wanting to see PTK watered down, and that's one I personally share very strongly. However, there is a difference between something being agreeable in concept to a sentiment that is actively functioning realizing the stated goals.

    The most-commonly-used vehicle that facilitates spreading martial arts knowledge is business. That business could be big or small, for profit or non-profit, successful or struggling. Especially in the states, nearly all of us went through the training that we have and paid/offered monies (or something else of value) as part of the process. There is nothing wrong with this. I would never dream of approaching an instructor with the expectation or insistence of being trained for free. There is no realistic way to speak of not watering down a martial art without speaking of the accompanying business practice.

    Some schools dilute their art out of greed, but it is also done out of ignorance because the decision makers do not know how to retain the value of their product. Other schools run in to trouble because the owner and staff doesn't have a good command of business basics such as labor laws, accounting standards, insurance coverage, or managing a customer's expectations.

    Despite all of this, there is no martial arts system that I know of that demands entrepreneurial skills and a proven business acumen when promoting a student to instructor. There is years of practice that goes in to a students personal proficiency, and teaching skills, but little to know focus on the very vehicle that brings this art to other people.

    There are many ways that business practices can help keep PTK from being watered down. One could be instructor dedication to material over income. Another is an instructor with a career outside of teaching that allows the person to provide for themselves without needing to use their instruction as a profit center.

    However, there are other ways to accomplish this as well.

    One can attract a customer base that seeks the exclusive.

    There is a market for physical trainning that is demanding and experiences that are elite. Many of the folks buying these things have an appreciation and a desire to be a part of the rare and undiluted. It's not for everyone. Not everyone appreciates beluga caviar or an exquisitely cut dry-aged porterhouse, either...but for the people that are...they are buying, paying high prices, and are happy to do so. An instructor with the stature to attract, close, and retain a customer base that includes the areas business elite would be able to run a profitable business without watering the art down.


    Another is thinking outside the box when training children.

    There is a lot of money to be made by training children, training children doesn't mean that one waters down the art. I don't think a 6 year old should be taught to cut another 6 year old's throat with a training blade. However, a child can be taught certain aspects of the art and participate in physical activities that help them have fun and build confidence as they mature. Even if (say) a 13 year old begins serious training after having done nothing but blocks, manoeuvers, adn dodge ball for the last 6 years, that 13 year old is far better prepared to take on the rigors of an undiluted art than a 13 year old that's spent the last 6 years playing Nintendo and eating at McDonalds.


    Or, thinking outside the box with the space available.

    An instructor can offer instruction in something health/fitness related...such as conditioning sessions, cardio classes, or personal training. The strength of PTK is not diminished simply by being taught in the same place that offiers a noontime kickboxing class for people in the town's office parks.

    An experienced entrepreneur could grow the business by taking advantage of other opportunities that fit the situation of the school. I know of one school that has a small, but dedicated group of students. The owner wanted to expand his business but didn't want to cannibalize the school's training or atmosphere. Instead, when it came time to expand, he rented more space and converted it to a coffee shop which he ran as a seperate business. He's mentioned that the coffee shop is starting to have a customer base of its own...but then said he was surprised at it actually made the environment of the school even better. He says some students linger for coffee after class, discussing their traing, proposing times to get together and practice, or even taking a moment to get to know the newer students better.

    An instructor that wants to presesrve their art must pass it on to someone that can teach efficiently. But much like a teacher can't be by a student's side in a real fight...a teacher can't be by the student's side when they have to make operational decisions in a gathering of their own.

    Whether they set out to teach in their garage, at the Y, or on Main street...the preservation of the art depends on the daily business decisions these students make, and how they continue to make them as their teaching matures.

    I hope they are taught wisely.
     
  19. Matt Lim

    Matt Lim New Member

    Yep, its such a nice art. No need to "advertise" that way.
     
  20. Wayuk-Oyaak

    Wayuk-Oyaak New Member

    Carol, my apologies to you... I didn't know that you're a lady.

    @ equilibrium

    Sir, I agree on your post. Tuhon don't teach us how to be "money maker" but a good practitioner.
     

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