Is Pekiti Tirsia a Pure / Thoroughbred FMA?

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by truth_be_told, May 9, 2007.

  1. truth_be_told

    truth_be_told -== Banned ==-

    reading after GM Leo Gaje blogspot at http://pekiti-tirsia.typepad.com

    have following question -

    i) Is PTK really a 100% genuine pure bred FMA?

    ii) How does GM Leo view existing FMA in the Phil if such the case ?
    If impression is wrong, why does GM Leo Gaje make statement like below:

    On one hand seems to say ( PTK Unity amongst FMAers is only for select group Inosantos, Bakbakan, Doce Pares etc. except Balintawak)

    quate - blog Oct 23, 2006
    'I dont tolerate anyone who critizes anyone and who cannot justify that critisicm.
    If you critize Guro Dan Inosanto or Bakbakan or Doce Pares or any FMA it is as good as you critize me or despise our teachings.

    If you are with Balintawak and you think non-Balintawak is no tgt good then come out in the open and say you are Balintawak that way I will respect you but hide like a wet chicken then you are useless.
    Nobody question the blade while it is flat and nobody question the stick since it is round and nobody undermines the bullet because it bites'
    On the other hand, he blasted the above same group.
    quate March 07, 2007 GM Leo blogspot says

    I) In PEKITI TIRSIA EYES, Non-Filipino teachings or Non-Filipino content (whether from silat, japarts, chinesearts etc.) HAS NO PLACE IN REAL WORLD

    i) Leo own words "THE DAYS ARE NUMBERED FOR THOSE WHOSE IMAGE IN THE FMA IS MIXED WITH THE NON-FILIPINO SUBSTANCES. "

    So Canete's family arts like Cacoy Doce Pares or even Eskrido or MODERN ARNIS or KOMBATAN or Bakbakan or other FMAs that had foreign content can all go Asunder ?

    "THE NON-FILIPINO TEACHINGS AND THE NON-FILIPINO MATERIALS IN THE REALITY OF COMBATANCY HAS NO PLACE IN THE REAL WORLD OF
    DEAD MAN TELLS NO TALES ENCOUNTERS. "
    i wonder if this befits Dan Inosanto. He is American (never step foot on Phil soil), he also teaches materials of Non-Filipino origins ?

    Sorry if ask the question isn't Tom Bisio master of PTK Doce Methodos which is accumulation of other FMA arts?

    II) KALI IS THE MOTHER FMA ARTs ...ARNIS/ESKRIMA proponents are 'Liars Martial Arts'?

    quate GM Leo blog on Aug 28:
    'One of the arguments is the use of the word Arnis-Escrima instead of the true word of Kali.

    Those who insist to use the word Arnis-Escrima is the fact that the existense of non-filipino martial arts became a materials to mixed with other martial arts believing that mixed can be a good material in the teachings making people believe that such style is good style.

    More so with the teachers who knows a little and yet pretended to be knowing a lot'

    believed GM Cacoy Canete is in project to dispel 'KALI' the word or mother art of FMA. see Cacoy interview recent past.

    Tell me if impression is wrong.
     
  2. Twist

    Twist Junior Member

    First of all, I really like what I've seen of PTK so this is no critique at all on the system.

    But imho the whole "my style is the purest FMA" crap is ridiculous. Its just another thing to argue about and a source for bad blood between the styles.

    I'm currently in the Philippines, have seen many many different styles and most of them have japanese or other influences. And whats the problem, if its working? It is a fact that most of the master did karate or combat judo or something else at some time and of course that influenced their art. (Obvious especially in the different Doce Pares and Modern Arnis styles, but the same with many Balintawak-guys, or Kali Ilustrisimo or most of the other groups.)

    And if I'm not mistaken, GT Gaje did train with Doce Pares (so he has non-philippino influences there) and Indonesian Silat, which isnt filipino either.

    So why not use it if its working and working well within the FMA-System?
     
  3. truth_be_told

    truth_be_told -== Banned ==-

    re:

    but according to GM Leo Gaje said PTK is 100% Pure and Not mixed
    quate May 17, 2006 blogspot

    I) PEKITI TIRSIA is PURE FMA, the only 1%.

    direct quate "99% percent of those who teaches FMA had mixed with the Japanese, Korean, Chinese and other Martial arts believing that it can be superior than the original FMA"

    In same blog, Invites to Real masters to join him for February 22to 26-2007 fly from Manila to Mindanao direct to Parang Cotabato at the heart of the Bansang Moro country for guerrila warfare project.

    quate GM Leo

    "Only one word of advice ( no insurance or guarrantee).For those who are in the list are the Mantas dagga,The Dekiti-Tirsia, The Illustrisimos style, Sayoc Kali,Atienza Kali,Balintawak, Laban Laro, Bakbakan,and others who are teaching FMA whose names just came out in the internet .The Missiion is SEARCH AND DESTROY. "
    Why Sayoc & Atienza Kali ? They not based in Phil at all.

    Why Laban Laro Balintawak etc? these are general name for group while other are explicit ?
    So is PTK really 100% Pure Bred with No external influence ?

    Do all PTK practitioner (past present) agree that it is PTK is void of external influence ?
     
  4. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    If there is a "most pure" or "original" FMA, I am not familiar with it. A lot of things seem to have come from Doce Pares, but it isn't 400 years old.

    All Filipino systems have some Spanish influence. It's also very hard to believe that there is no Chinese, SE Asian, or Indian influence in the systems, given the seafaring nature of all those nations. Sailors surely traded techniques...one way or another. What's kuntao but (Indo)Chinese systems?
     
  5. PeteNerd

    PeteNerd Member

    Go to a seminar and ask Tuhon, but be respectful. Don't pick apart a bunch of blog posts to try to start some Pure art argument.

    He's just saying have some pride and integrity in your art. A lot of people mix FMA with other stuff and try to sell it as FMA. Obviously he's biased towards Pekiti Tirsia.

    Pete
     
  6. Ventura

    Ventura -== Banned ==-

    This is how I see it, other styles or "systems" are broken pieces. They're reversed engineered to represent something complete, but they had to take missing pieces from other arts (judo, karate, kung fu, silat, etc) to complete it.

    When Tuhon says Pekiti Tirsia is pure I think what he's saying is that it's the most complete system of Pilipino martial arts. It is pure because it doesn't have any missing pieces. The principles and methods as passed down from Conrado Tortal to Leo Gaje is so complete it can adapt, create and evolve from within. It doesn't need the infusion from other arts foreign or domestic.

    The difference is the completeness of the system in principles and methods. Other "styles" borrow and incorporate to fill in the missing pieces, Pekiti Tirsia does not because it doesn't have to.

    Tuhon did his research. He can say this because he has done his comparative analysis.
     
  7. Carol

    Carol <font color = blue><b>Technical Administrator</b><

    The impression that I received from reading his blog (May 7th back to April 29) was that he was trying to make a "most indiginous" point.

    Which personally I find to be a bit curious. Someone here once posted a quote that I think sums up the culture of FMA training quite nicely. He said something to the effect of "Rank doesn't matter in the Philppines, what matters is if you're good." I'm a little surprised to see what strikes me as a Japanese/Okinawan type of argument for a Filipino art.
     
  8. Chris Wiggins

    Chris Wiggins New Member

    This seems to me to be just bait for the flamers. Tuhon Gaje is very charismatic and VERY opinionated. It's not bragging if you can back it up. The man is near 70, and has been training, non stop, since he was 6! He is, without debate, the single greatest living authority on FMA. He has had a stick/blade in his hands longer than most of us have been on this earth.
    There is nuance in the broken english of the blog. There are also, very often, great nuggets of wisdom.
    The bottom line is, he sees a watering down of what he believes to be the true FMA. It's COMBAT, not ticky tack drills with sloppy striking and no footwork. If you've not been to a seminar, or trained with him; if your only experience with PTK is what you've seen on You Tube, I don't think you're seeing the whole picture.
     
  9. truth_be_told

    truth_be_told -== Banned ==-

    Most Pure Indigenious?

    carol is spot on 'the most indigenious' art. read the blogspot

    FMA history being short than other MA.

    hard to imagine an art does not NO outside/external influence. in a sense pure Indigenious. this why i do some research and post the question.

    the norm most FMA is take pride in the external influences as 'what works' matters.

    but PTK does not instead shun those who had external influences (clearly from blog with explicit naming of FMA styles)

    this no question on GM Leo Gaje abilities.

    this is more like anthropology academic aspect on claims made whether substantial or not.

    the little i know and thanks to google here are some quates

    I) PTK practitioner Website:

    GT Conrado was a Christian missionary early in life, and later a Chief of Police. Through their travels, Grand Tuhon and his brothers were able to encounter other Filipino martial arts systems, sometimes from demonstrations, and others by mortal combat. The Philippines became a virtual laboratory for Pekiti-Tirsia. Although Grand Tuhon is called the founder of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali by most, the family system was studied for at least two generations prior. Grand Tuhon’s contribution consisted of structuring the system with a progressive approach to learning.

    The doce methodos was created as a training tool to show other family members and future generations how others might fight. The natural progression through the doce methodos instilled new concepts and skills in the practitioner. Once the doce methodos was completed, the actual family system of Pekiti-Tirsia was taught and better appreciated.
    II) from PTK? Greg Aland
    During our work together I saw the development and growth of PT from other systems, in that Tuhon stayed in the house of GM Dionisio Canete from around October to May of 1979 when he returned with the 'Sagong lebo, lebo sagong, we all said wow. But I found it to be direct from Doce Pares, although when we meet GM 'Nene' Tortal, many years later it was part of the Dekiti Tirsia Saradas, and the drill was not isolated to just the punyo, but in the saradas of DT it had many elements of change

    some would even say PTK is Conglomeration, Consolidation and Refined from Other Styles Of FMA from some PMs.

    any constutive comment?
     
  10. Matt Lim

    Matt Lim New Member

    There was a time in the visayas particularly in cebu that the term escrima or any movement simulating close quarter combat is known as doce pares. It doesn't matter what it is, how its done, it was called doce pares.

    PTK as pure FMA is as pure as the water of the present pasig river.
     
  11. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I didn't know that! I was referring to the specific art.
     
  12. Black Grass

    Black Grass Junior Member

    Hahaha! But you still see people in the Pasig River!

    Vince
    aka Black Grass
     
  13. Ventura

    Ventura -== Banned ==-

    There was also a time when there were no such people as Pilipinos. There were only different ethnic groups: Tagalog, Ilocano, Illongo, Ibanag, Visaya, Pampangueno, etc, etc.

    How far back in history do you want to go, pre-1500's?
     
  14. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Actually, this is a good point. Every nation has to forge its identity at some point!
     
  15. Gilla

    Gilla -== Banned ==-

    PTK is as pure a FMA as it gets. Its history can be traced a 125 years, what the personal influence of the PTK practitioner is is something else. And once more people who don't train in it are trying to make some assumtion . Come and see the elephant and you will understsand. Also don't listen to Nene or Mr. Alland they don't know either.
    Eddie
     
  16. puntadas

    puntadas New Member

    that's 400yrs! & who gives a toss about purity? Geezer...
     
  17. oosh

    oosh Junior Member

    The Ilustrisimo Family style can be traced back to Tatang's Great Grand Father - Pablo Ilustrisimo; Tatang was born in 1904.

    The lineage stretches further back than Pablo, but those names aren't available to us.
     
  18. Gilla

    Gilla -== Banned ==-

    Mr.Lim what do you mean by PTK as pure as the pasig river? Could you explain, many people on this blog have not been to the Philipines and don't get your referance. I do, others might not.
    Eddie
     
  19. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Yes, I'm afraid that I didn't understand the significance of that reference!
     
  20. PeteNerd

    PeteNerd Member

    The pasig river connects Laguna Lake and Manila Bay. It divides the city of Manila in half. It is also so polluted that it's considered biologically dead.

    Pete
     

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